interesting article

[SewnFlesh]

what a fucking crybaby.

underground music is NOT a career path and thinking that anyone owes you and your shitty band anything because of the choices you made is pretty fucking self absorbed.

[Andrew]

underground music is NOT a career path

Besides it not being a career path because it realistically isn't viable for 99% of bands, do you feel like there are other reasons that underground music cannot be a career path? I'd think of it more as a means of making a living over a career path, but they're to the same end.

[SewnFlesh]

underground music is NOT a career path

Besides it not being a career path because it realistically isn't viable for 99% of bands, do you feel like there are other reasons that underground music cannot be a career path? I'd think of it more as a means of making a living over a career path, but they're to the same end.

if you can make a living at it then consider yourself very lucky.. i don't have a problem with people who have a go at trying to make a living off of their art. But to think that you deserve anything or that the underground community should change because you decided you need to tour around for 180 shows a year is just plain idiotic. part of what makes underground music great is that its cheap because bands just do it for fun not money. if your a great band then your effort will be worth it. If your not such a great band.. then I suppose you'll end a grumpy 30 something who bitches about all the great things that people have done for them and how the underground community needs to step up so your choices will be justified.

thats just my opinion.. i'm sure others will disagree.

[JRIA]

i dont know if lucky bar still allows it but when i was underage they said I could stand at the back door to the stage as long as i didnt come into the bar it was fine. and that was me even putting those shows on.

sneak in. utp.

[officespace]

sneak in. utp.

This is the weakest argument in the book.

[grind/bro]

sneak in. utp.

This is the weakest argument in the book.

i snuck in to see cannibal corpse at Sugar when i was 18. best show ever.

[JRIA]

climb through the roof

and "sneak in" wasnt a real suggestion but it is a great idea.

[Human-Demise]

sneak in. utp.

This is the weakest argument in the book.

i snuck in to see cannibal corpse at Sugar when i was 18. best show ever.

i was gonna sneak in for crytopsy, but my lady friend bailed on going.

[Rude Boy Puff]

I snuck into cannibal corpse when I was 18 at studabakers, show was a bummer cause layne staly died that night or news had just broke
Snuck into Dimmu borgir/cryptopsy at 16 and I didnt even come close to looking older than 12. Bars werent so tough on ID at the time.

[Human-Demise]

I snuck into cannibal corpse when I was 18 at studabakers, show was a bummer cause layne staly died that night or news had just broke
Snuck into Dimmu borgir/cryptopsy at 16 and I didnt even come close to looking older than 12. Bars werent so tough on ID at the time.

That mean you got to see cryptopsy when lord worm was still in the band?

[Rude Boy Puff]

It was I wanna say 2001 and it was a some hardcore looking dude, cant remember his name they only got to play 3 songs that night. Saw them twice with Lord Worm when he rejoined the band a couple years later.

[JRIA]

i didnt mean to hijack this thread and turn it into "what shows have you snuck into". sorry.
either way. bring some dynamite to the bar and blow up the wall to see the band play. EASY

[Andrew]

if you can make a living at it then consider yourself very lucky.. i don't have a problem with people who have a go at trying to make a living off of their art.

I didn't take from what he said that he thinks he deserves success. I took it to be that he felt the need to defend his band's decision to play the Scion show and made his argument by talking about what effort and sacrifices have come with playing in TT.

I'm not really interested in the merit of playing the Scion shows or not, I don't know much about them. Whether I agreed with his every point or not, I liked that he questioned how things are and raised some good points for his argument. In general I agree with him. From the standpoint of a music fan, not someone who's in a band, I'd be pretty happy if some of my favorite bands made more records and toured more often, and if shows and records cost me a couple dollars more to make that happen I think it'd be worth it. I think the financial burden has caused many good bands to break up before their time.

[Hollow]

if you can make a living at it then consider yourself very lucky.. i don't have a problem with people who have a go at trying to make a living off of their art.

I didn't take from what he said that he thinks he deserves success. I took it to be that he felt the need to defend his band's decision to play the Scion show and made his argument by talking about what effort and sacrifices have come with playing in TT.

I'm not really interested in the merit of playing the Scion shows or not, I don't know much about them. Whether I agreed with his every point or not, I liked that he questioned how things are and raised some good points for his argument. In general I agree with him. From the standpoint of a music fan, not someone who's in a band, I'd be pretty happy if some of my favorite bands made more records and toured more often, and if shows and records cost me a couple dollars more to make that happen I think it'd be worth it. I think the financial burden has caused many good bands to break up before their time.

That's pretty much what I got from this article as well. I disagree on a personal level, as I didn't get into underground music to make money or make a living off of it, but if that's what someone wants to do then I'm willing to throw them some money to help them out (as long as I like the band, of course). The fact is, is that money doesn't go as far as it used to now a days, and show prices haven't really reflected that for a while. There should be some leeway, though. When I used to put on shows, I would always throw a little of my own money in so that kids that couldn't afford to get in for one reason or another could. I know Troy and Scott do the same thing. We should always be there to help people who want to see a show see it. I guess the biggest problem in underground music would be sketchy promoters (of which there are a few) who are just in it to either rip off bands or simply to be cool and then fuck over the touring bands.

His rant about people who complain about a shows cost and then drop $180 on Lady Gaga tickets was spot on, too.

[SewnFlesh]

its mostly the tone with which he writes that irks me. being in underground punk bands and touring around is such a luxury that most of the world can't even comprehend. just be happy that you get to do it. And I don't agree with his generalizations about kids spending their money.. you know what.. if your going to make an argument in defense of corporate funding for underground music.. then don't judge other people for what they choose to do.

[Hollow]

its mostly the tone with which he writes that irks me. being in underground punk bands and touring around is such a luxury that most of the world can't even comprehend. just be happy that you get to do it. And I don't agree with his generalizations about kids spending their money.. you know what.. if your going to make an argument in defense of corporate funding for underground music.. then don't judge other people for what they choose to do.

Thats fair. I think Ive just been noticing a trend lately for people to complain about things that they either dont have a right to complain about, or that they honestly dont have any control over (such as the rising cost of living).

But then I suppose you could put this article in the same basket.

[Peter]

Okay somethings I should clear up,

"Man up" was a terrible choice of words, agreed. I get worked up when I start typing and then never look self-edit because then I get self conscious and never end up saying anything...which in retrospect maybe the better path for me in the future.

The big thing that I just don't get about Bar shows and Hardcore in this city, is it IS almost a purely ideological reason as to why these kinds of shows don't happen in bars. Yes I know a couple have but before you say that, hold that thought.

I understand the idea of including and wanting the underage kids to go to shows. I JUST did that, (albeit an indierock show...) I put on a show with a band from Vancouver (Said The Whale) that has never played an AA show in town before, and I knew A LOT of kids would want to come, and I was right. 360 people were there (bands included), and I would estimate about 250 were under age! That's a HUGE percentage.

360--Thats a lot of people! But, had it been at Sugar, which is where the band normally plays when they're intown, and it would have sold out which (I believe) is about a 650 capacity venue (correct me if I'm wrong...I could be way off). I did the show at the AA space because I wanted to have a show kids could go to. I knew I could make more money at Sugar, and the bands knew that too, but they wanted to do an AA.

So don't get me wrong, I totally understand the idea of wanting to give shows to kids. And I remember being underage and being super bummed out when bands came to town I couldn't see.

But I also think about the AA shows I've been to/played, Hardcore or otherwise. Where the attendance hasn't been super, and I know the promoters end up having to pay a bunch of money out of their pockets to give to the bands from out of town. And I think about the times I've seen incredibly stupid shit go down because of some idiots--and I've seen venues closed for that very reason.

Now I understand that people play underground music, not to be rich and famous, but because they love it. Vegan Holocaust played a dozen or so shows and we never asked for money, and we never expected it. We were having a ton of fun and thats why we were doing it. But that being said, I don't think that just because someone plays underground music doesn't mean they shouldn't be able to get compensation for their hard work, nor do I think it should mean spending their own personal savings to fund it.

I look at it like this. Touring is REALLY FUCKING hard work. Really hard. And even being in a band, is not easy by any stretch. The time and energy it takes to practice and write and get to a level you're proud of is hard work. It's the fucking most fun thing in the world. But it's hard work. And I truly believe people deserve to be financially supported for doing that. Touring is not cheap, especially touring this country as there's so few cities close together. Touring the states is a bit easier, my friend just did a 7 date, 8 day tour of washington state, and spent as much gas money as he has touring from Victoria-Vancouver-Kelowna (nevermind ferry)... but I remember bands coming here from Europe! That's nuts!

Also recording, gear to play, vans, and pressing records is also expensive and those things add up.

Where am I going with this...

Anyways, the round about point I'm trying to make is, yes I understand that Underground music is generally not about making money. And yes I understand AA shows are important, I know they are. But I also believe in paying bands the funds they are deserved, and work hard for. And I think often that would be better attainable in a bar. Bars are often happy to help you promote shows, often there's less overhead, and you don't have to worry about other people drinking... (I know you addressed this Willa but this is an issue.) And yea, 200 kids came to Comeback Kid, WHICH IS AWESOME and I still wish I could have made it. But that's a special show, just like 360 came to Said The Whale, i don't expect that for every indie rock show I put on. Community or not, how many shows realistically break 100? Very, very few. At least the one's I've been to... Maybe I have bad choices... I just think often a bar would be a better alternative to the shows, so you could better pay the out-of-towners coming all this way.

[Digression: I also wonder if as the society, you could sign a 'deal' with one bar (maybe Rehab...I know I know its "Rehab", but they've got a cool sound system and are always trying to get shows...and it's the perfect size I think) to always give them your business and you could get it for cheap. Plus it could help build that place as THE VIHC bar venue... Just a stupid idea...]

I'm not in ANY way saying AA shows aren't important. As I think they are. But especially when a lot of shows are happening in a shorter amount of time, I think it makes sense to have some at bars. Both financially, and for attendance purposes. Like how AA shows can open people up to hardcore, I think bar shows could too.

I also apologize for using the term "crappy hall", I also refer to every bar in this town as "crappy". I actually think the Da Vinci centre was a really nice place, and I have a special place in my heart for the White Eagle Hall. I don't mean to come off as hostile as I always seem to in these big threads.

I get I'm not as "in" the hardcore ethos as much, so maybe I just don't get it. But I just believe in paying bands what they deserve, and just want that to happen more. That's really what my whole whining was about.

I DONT EVEN DRINK!!!!

[Jordan f.]

a wise man once said it best...

"I remember ten years ago,
Hard to stay out of trouble when there's no place to go.
Killing time out of line.
We threw all caution to the wind.
It was hard enough just to be a kid,
Let alone deal with the problems I was given.
I didn't care what youth had to offer.
It seemed it was "in".
Call us up and play a show,
Say "it's over 21" and we'll say, "hell no!"
Cause it's all ages!
I see it all around me everyday.
Kids are bored and surrounded by negativity.
Killing time out line cause they're kept away.
Influences come from every side
And I don't want to be a part of troubling your lives.
So, if they don't let you in, then we're not gonna play.
Just because you're not 21,
That's not supposed to mean you can't have any fun.
So, come out and raise your fists high,
Stage dive, and forget about what they say.
Dance the night away."

[Peter]

Oh and andrew, you said something about AA bar shows?

Unfortunately it can't happen in BC because of our liquor licenses... obviously yea this would be the best middle-ground.

[Rude Boy Puff]

i didnt mean to hijack this thread and turn it into "what shows have you snuck into". sorry.
either way. bring some dynamite to the bar and blow up the wall to see the band play. EASY

Pretty sure I wasnt following your super cool snuck into shows vibe and more establishing that Nick Gibas and I were actually sisters in our awesome taste in shows we sneak into. Thanks.