The politics of suicide

[Andrew]

If someone is terminally ill I understand and respect why they may wish to end their life, but I don't respect someone's choice to commit suicide if they are living what could be considered a "normal" life because I do not believe the decision can come from a place of mental wellness.

Can you define "normal"? Can you define "terminally ill"? I think it's important that we find a definition that works best for both of us if we're going to be arguing this. As I've stated before, I've met/seen people who were mentally unstable to the point that when they eventually committed suicide, I viewed it as an outgrowth of their disease. As such, I would view certain mental illnesses as "terminal". As well, what may seem and be "normal" to you may in fact be completely aberrant to another person. Is it our place, then, to apply our moral standards of "normal" to that person's life?

I get that saying "a normal life" is a very broad stroke, but I think you understand what I mean. Again, I have no interest in arguing the philosophy of suicide.
My "moral standards of normal" do not need to be considered because I believe it relates to us as animals, not as a culturally conditioned people, and spoke from that position.

I disagree that certain mental illnesses are terminal illness because they lead to suicide because the disease is not causing the person to die, they are. If someone had muscular dystrophy that got to the point that the disease stopped their body functions and they die you would say that the disease killed them. If someone had muscular dystrophy and fell down some stairs because they had trouble walking and balancing and died from their injuries I would not say muscular dystrophy killed them, I would say they died from a fall that muscular dystrophy played a part in.

To be clear, I am not saying I disrespect people who commit suicide, I am saying I do not respect the decision. If any of you posting here came to me tomorrow and told me you decided to commit suicide, unless you could convince me that you were facing a slow, painful, awful death, I would not accept your decision as being a good one.

[Andrew]

Okay I am sorry, I didn't really intend for any of that to be condescending. I keep forgetting about our little conversation from before about how it's hard to pick out context from what is being said over the internet.

This is me too. I don't intend to ever sound harsh but what I intend as to-the-point efficiency in my posting (mostly a by product of my one finger hunt and peck typing technique) often unintentionally comes across as unfriendly in tone. My friends have told me this before as well.

[grind/bro]

Okay I am sorry, I didn't really intend for any of that to be condescending. I keep forgetting about our little conversation from before about how it's hard to pick out context from what is being said over the internet.

This is me too. I don't intend to ever sound harsh but what I intend as to-the-point efficiency in my posting (mostly a by product of my one finger hunt and peck typing technique) often unintentionally comes across as unfriendly in tone. My friends have told me this before as well.

I try not to get into huge arguements here or anywhere else because of this. I'd have to revise, edit and study for a bit to get a proper point across. Forums just tend to have people expecting to have it perfect response right away. I suck at written exams because of this. I need to prepare. Plus the whole re-quoting quotes on quotes is so goddamn frustrating I don't want to bother.

[canon.docre]

Is the guy who's strung out on H, surviving handout to handout "living"? Or is he existing? There is a difference, and one that could (and should) be explored.

He's definitely living. Being addicted to heroin has its high points, I would guess.

If, to take an earlier example I used, someone is so fully depressed that they are not leaving their house, or their bed, and require their family or friends to help them with day to day activities, has that person not stopped living already?

That person is living too. Assisted living, no doubt, but they're still kicking around or what not and potentially could actually do something sweet or have some fun at some point. Time has this interesting effect of providing the opportunity for change. If someone wants to argue that killing yourself doesn't stop your opportunity for change .. we need a new forum for you and the other buddhist reincarnationists.

When someone fully gives up, whether their "Higher Brain" is functioning or not, I find it hard to convince myself that their life continues to be worth living.

What does 'giving up' even mean? I don't think you've given up until you've actually killed yourself. If you're like, year 4 into a heroin addiction and still haven't managed to die, I think that is the definition of having not given up. Same thing if you're still sitting in a bedroom year 10 not having left the house, but haven't ended your life yet. Since killing yourself is this "off" switch, I think you're still on and still have some hope until you've actually put a bullet in your brain or whatever.

Mere existence is not enough, and if a person is simply waking every morning because they have no other choice then I cannot call their life "whole".

I think this is a totally weird thing to say. Why does life even have to be whole to keep living? I haven't even touched on whether or not suicide is something I'm against and I can't even get through 3 sentences from you on this subject without disgreeing so strongly that I haven't to cut and paste quotes and single something out for being .. I don't even know. Jesus we're all fucking traumatized. You're sitting here making judgments on at what point suicide becomes a viable option: when you just can't get out of bed anymore? Come on, man. I've sat in bed for 3 days straight. What is the difference between that and 3 years? Or 3 decades?

Tambo: I would argue that living our lives to the fullest, in spite of our short times here on earth, is enough meaning for any of us. Sure, there may be no overarching higher concept that will shepard us into a golden age but that doesn't mean that life has no meaning. It simply means that existence has no meaning. There is no reason for us to exist, but since we're here we might as well do it right.

If there isn't some overarching higher concept driving us, then measurement of when its appropriate to kill yourself is not even something worth discussing because its different for everyone, and you can't even say how you would have to feel internally to want to do that because if you'd felt that way before, you'd be dead now. Buddy at the top of his game should be equally justified in killing himself too, you know? Or rather, not. If someone is so fucked up that they can't function, let's step in and show them another way rather than let them kill themselves, and then wipe our hands clean because we "urged them to seek therapy" which is literally more of a pedestrian effort than calling 9-11 when you see a complete stranger dying on the street.

[CodyCreepcore]

i've recently had 2 friends admit themselves to the emerg psych ward for not feeling safe around themselves. One of which wants nothing more then to be in the long term care ward, but cant get admitted to the long term until the psychologists decide that they need it. this one person has been in and out of the emerg 6 or 7 times (they only keep them for a day or 2) and is losing hope of getting help and has had thoughts of doing something so extreme that the psychologists can't say no. they feel that they will only get in if they arrive by ambulance or police car.

thats pretty fucked if it had to come to that just to get some help.

[Hollow]

i've recently had 2 friends admit themselves to the emerg psych ward for not feeling safe around themselves. One of which wants nothing more then to be in the long term care ward, but cant get admitted to the long term until the psychologists decide that they need it. this one person has been in and out of the emerg 6 or 7 times (they only keep them for a day or 2) and is losing hope of getting help and has had thoughts of doing something so extreme that the psychologists can't say no. they feel that they will only get in if they arrive by ambulance or police car.

thats pretty fucked if it had to come to that just to get some help.

I would agree, and I fully support more funding for mental wellness. I want there to be options for people who are seriously considering hurting themselves to have better options than they have now.

I've been meaning to come on here and say this, but I done fucked up. I started, somewhere along the lines, debating when/if it was appropriate to kill yourself, and that's not what I meant to do. I have no desire to get into that conversation, because it's a can of worms I have no desire to open up.

I think that suicide is always something that should be looked at as a last choice. My question is: should we be marginalizing those that want to commit suicide, or instead approaching suicide the same way we approach abortion, which is to say that it is a choice and one that should be protected as a freedom as well? I say it's a pro-choice issue, and should be treated as such. I still don't want anyone to do it, but ultimately I have no real control over what another person wants to do with their body.

I'm sorry again for getting off track and making stupid arguments. I'm better now.