Gear thread cont'd

[reece]

Into the return of fx worked really well.

[tylerp]

so I'm becoming increasingly interested in EQ gear for a guitar rig. this is mainly because that guy on usedvic with the mxr 10 band eq pedal flaked out on me.

I read an article that says that you get a ton of tone control out of having a couple EQ stages - one RIGHT after your guitar and one after distortion and/or the preamp.

I am sort of interested in achieving this by getting a good 2 channel rack EQ and running my guitar cable into the first channel, output into my amp's normal input, and the FX send (this is post-preamp, right?) into the second channel and the FX return receiving it.

this is especially directed at Kevin and Andrew, but is this a good idea? will this introduce unwanted noise somehow? I know lots of rack EQs are not meant to receive a guitar signal and that they would have to use unbalanced 1/4 ins and outs.

does anyone have a suggestion as to what I could use? the more bands the better but I'd be happy with at least 12 bands per channel. ideally under $200 used as well. I am open to parametric but would prefer a graphic eq.

(the root of this is because I'm having trouble with my mids coming out as much as I'd like, but I also really want to see what else I can achieve with this idea)

[tylerp]

also I haven't done a lot of looking yet but something like this:
http://cgi.ebay.com/Alesis-MEQ-230-Dual ... 7057c#shId

seems up my alley. I know there are a TON of eq makes/models so I'm not adverse to buying a weird forgotten one on ebay.

also I don't have a rack but I'd probably just set something like this on top of my amp

[Andrew]

I'm not that familiar with outboard eq's for guitar or bass, so I can't recommend brands.

It seems like you're applying the "more is better" approach to eq. I don't think that's necessary. Despite how overdone my rack set up is, I really think simpler is better. I'd try an eq pedal first (Boss, MXR, Tech 21, etc.) and see if it doesn't give you what you're after. I know a couple people who swear by the difference an eq pedal made to their sound. Plus a pedal is a lot easier to travel with and set up.

Not a conventional eq per se, but I recently got an EHX Graphic Fuzz pedal that's pretty cool for getting weird guitar tones, or just a really nice fuzz tone you can really sculpt.

[Andrew]

(the root of this is because I'm having trouble with my mids coming out as much as I'd like, but I also really want to see what else I can achieve with this idea)

What's your set-up (guitar/pedals/amp/cab)? And what kind of sound are you after?

[tylerp]

yeah, I might just try a single eq pedal, I just noticed that some 2 channel rack EQs are just as cheap. a perfect EQ should, when flat, impart absolutely no changes on the tone, right? so I was more looking for subtle ways to alter the EQ at different stages rather than going wild with some more-is-better approach.

my setup varies but I'm using a flat top les paul-bodied SX guitar with P90s - I'm trying to go for something that can handle sharp articulation in the middle few strings and have them stand out even while open Es are ringing out on the bottom (humbuckers seem to emphasize the low E over everything else). I'm primarily just using a Sunn Model T (Fender reissue). Using the amp's distortion. I have a few pedals but they aren't the culprit and I don't always use them. I have a good grasp on how speakers and amps can influence the frequency range as it is, I'm just looking for something that can take my current setup tone-wise and just have a bit more emphasis on a few specific midrange frequencies. this is also out of genuine interest in seeing what I can do with some EQ at different stages and some more frequency control than B/M/T on the amp face. I know that most of the "tone" comes from the guitar/amp/cab combo but I want to see how I can additionally shape that.

[Crucified]

my opinion on this is that if your amp isn't making the sound you want it to, no amount of eq is going to change that. if you need a rack 30 band eq to get a usable tone from your amp maybe it's time to reconsider the amp you're using.

[Crucified]

another thing you might want to try is a tube screamer. turn down the gain on the amp and boost the signal from your guitar, it generally adds some midrange to your tone.

[Andrew]

Tyler, if you want a practical way to change your tone I'd say go with the eq pedal first. But if you want to experiment and figure some things out then go for a bigger eq and see how it affects your sound.

I play with different gear all the time just because I'm curious, not because I have a use for what I'm trying out. Sometimes it's good to just learn about gear for future reference.

[tylerp]

I have a tube screamer and have tried that trick you showed me. it give me more "bite" but that's not really what I want in this particular case. I think the change I want is subtle and I think I can achieve it by EQ. I didn't expect this thread to be so anti-EQ! I never said "there is a huge problem with my tone that I need changing" or anything along those lines. I'm pretty happy with what I can get.

also I don't think I need a rack 30 band one. I'm sure the MXR one or even a boss GE-7 would do the trick, I just get excited by having more bands.

really I came in here wondering if anyone had experience with EQing before the preamp and/or after the preamp and what the differences were, and also if anyone had specific EQ hardware suggestions, because it is new territory for me. I wish that jerk with the MXR one didn't go back on his part of the deal after we agreed to something. sigh.

I am curious just like you and that is why I have most of the stuff I have.

[Human-Demise]

buying a drum set, who want to start a thrashcore band.

[Andrew]

I didn't expect this thread to be so anti-EQ!

really I came in here wondering if anyone had experience with EQing before the preamp and/or after the preamp and what the differences were, and also if anyone had specific EQ hardware suggestions, because it is new territory for me.

I'm not anti EQ, in fact I believe you should do whatever you need to to get the sound you're after, regardless of how unconventional a set up you use to get it. I just want you to get the result you need with the simplest path. If practicality is not a concern I say go for the bigger EQ if you want it and see what it can do for you. I will caution that it's a slippery slope. You get a rackmount eq, you'll need a rack. You get a rack, might as well get a couple other rackmount things, you've got the room right? Next thing you know you've filled a 4 space rack. Maybe it'd be good to go to a 6 space and get a drawer. But then again if you got an 8 space rack you'd have room to grow. But now that you've got the 8 space those two empty spaces are bugging you. What could you fill them with? ...


I have no experience with putting eq before and after your head's preamp. I'd be curious to hear what you find though. There are definite differences to your tone from how you order your eq's. All the crap in my rack is in a particular order, and one that's even kinda backwards, but it sounds best to me that way.

[destroy]

if you wanna hear what my sovtek sounds like recorded, listen to any of the tempest stuff that we did before the LP. it'll be just that mixed with my ampeg. granted, there's like 12 guitar tracks on the 7" - three different cabinets with like three different mics on each, plus leads and other stuff. so yeah, it's like tyler said... i try to make my tone like the left field at Fenway.



tyler!

i am a strong believer in the EQ. i've never tried my EQ in the loop because i've never had a reason to. that and the fact that not all of my amps have one, and for me it would be way too inconvenient to pull off live with a multi-amp setup. i also don't think using another amp is the right idea at all if you have a great sounding amp that just needs some changes. hell, the tonestack on an amp can definitely be modded to make some tweaks and make those knobs fit in the right range.

i think i have a pretty good idea of what you're trying to go for as far as clearing it up and having more articulation, definition, and note separation. i honestly think one of the biggest things you could do would be to upgrade the pickups in your guitar to something really high end. i have no doubt that what you're playing comes with some pretty cheap magnets in there. out of like 6 or so aftermarket upgrades i've put on it, i definitely think the bareknuckle i put in my les paul is probably the best. aside from the steps it put towards my personal tone preference (probably not quite what you want...), it really cleared things up and added a lot of definition and note separation. i do a lot of similar chord work to what you're talking about. i'm constantly playing lots of complex offshoots of minor chords, weird barres, triads and what not - all with a pretty heavy constant open E in the mix. i do a lot of riffing with ringing open E's and arrpegiated and picked melodies on the E and B and what not, so it's pretty important to me. we do a lot of that in tempest and a lot of my favourite hardcore bands kinda do it in their own way too. will did it a bit on orchid stuff too so i know what you're talking about. one thing that i find is just as important though in not having the open E overpower everything in a big way is getting the pickup height just right so that you're still getting enough out of the treble side that it's not overpoweringly bright but still manages to let all that chord work shine and it not just be rumble all the time. i keep mine quite close to the strings but have it balanced in a way that it works just right. play some big sounding complex chords (think Em or something on the 7th fret with an open E), adjust it and just use your ears!

as for what i think an EQ can do for you? it definitely adds some flexibility in tweaking the constants and making some little minute adjustments, but i think you might find that when you make little adjustments in terms of boosts and cuts you might find that the fundamental itself is pretty nice on its own. i've found generally through recording if you put the microscope on really dirty guitar tracks you'll find that one frequency around 1000hz or so (different on every track, but it's generally around there) that just turns into white noise. trying to pull something like that out on the front end of your EQ just seems to end up making it sound weird, so i just leave it in because the guitar naturally sounds beautiful.

as for the way i set mine up, i keep the level neutral, but most of the bands are up quite high. i have a really big hard frown shape so all i really do is a big boost pretty much all the way through the low mids to the high mids with a small taper off on the bass and treble sides. i'm using a 10 band programmable Boss. i looked into MXR's years ago before i settled on this one, but bought it for the flexibility (manual graphic EQ + like 8 programmable presets). that and the fact that i heard a lot of reports that the MXR's were really noisy and just not quite up to snuff, so i stepped off. i mostly just use mine to push the front end of my amp that much more. i'd say if you're going to get one don't just cheap out and get like a GE7 or something. scotty used one for a while and it never made his guitar sound any better, whereas mine just adds a much appreciated big depth to my sound.

as for what you should buy - i definitely think a solid higher end eq pedal is a good start. anything else probably wouldn't be worth your time, even despite the mega flexibility something like a 31 band would bring you. racks are definitely a big can of worms like Andrew said. i try to avoid them for the most part for that among other reasons. hah.

but before Andrew jumps all over me and tells you not to listen me, i'll admit my tone was awful and i had all sorts of funny technical issues at jam last night, so grains of salt...


PS: don't you play a behringer cab? lolz. that might have something to do with it...

[Andrew]

before Andrew jumps all over me and tells you not to listen me, i'll admit my tone was awful and i had all sorts of funny technical issues at jam last night, so grains of salt...

No jumping from me, good advice on your part and you have experience with what Tyler's asking that I don't.

Your amp was being fickle last night, but when it was cooperating I thought your guitar sound was great! The Firebird has a prettiness and clarity to it's tone that I'm a sucker for.

[tylerp]

that pickup advice may be good. this whole thing really spiraled out of control. I retain my conviction that I like my cab and it sucks that a minor adjustment like I'm looking for results in advice like SCRAP THE PICKUPS SCRAP THE AMP SCRAP THE CAB START OVER. maybe I'll look into better p90s. it's always hard to judge a pickup from a shitty blues riff sample on the maker's website.

I hear what you're saying Andrew but I don't think I'll end up "that rack guy" and I was thinking of just leaving it on top of my head if I did get a rack EQ. but maybe a pedal will just be sufficient. I was just getting wild and greedy.

sean: I might look into that boss 10 band programmable one. I'm sure I'll get some nice control out of it and if I'm still not happy, I MIGHT change my pickups or MIGHT buy some trendy V30 or orange or oversized mesa.

[Andrew]

I hear what you're saying Andrew but I don't think I'll end up "that rack guy" and I was thinking of just leaving it on top of my head if I did get a rack EQ. but maybe a pedal will just be sufficient. I was just getting wild and greedy.

I would recommend a rack for a 31 band eq, though, both to preserve your settings and to protect the delicate sliders.

Upgrading your gear will give you better results, so it isn't bad advice, but remember too that plenty of our favorite records were made with less than great gear and they sound cool and are some of my favorite tones. If you can afford to upgrade your gear and want what doing so provides you Tyler then it isn't a bad thing. If you're happy with your set up then enjoy it and try some eq options.

And yes, get a rack and you will totally be "that rack guy".

[tylerp]

more on that 10 band boss eq... I'm suspicious because I thought I would really prefer an analog eq. I guess I have pedals that involve a-to-d-to-a conversion already. just an eq seems like something that you'd expect to be analog. maybe it doesn't matter in this case.

[tylerp]

damn you bong jesus, you got me looking at pickups.

http://www.bareknucklepickups.co.uk/mai ... kup=pig_90

"The tone is truly deserving of the term 'fat' with deep, rich bottom-end, throaty mids and sweet highs. Single notes have incredible weight behind them and chords have serious intensity. High gain applications are easily handled with individual notes always sounding full and defined no matter how saturated the tone. "

THIS IS WHAT I WANT. should I do it? should I??

[Crucified]

i think i was the only person that was anti-eq. i'm a dick like that. digital technology has gotten to the point where in blind comparisons, 99% of people can't tell the difference.

If you have a method of getting your gear around, i would call any shops that have the gear you want to try and bring the whole rig and spend a couple hours trying them all.

My current rig is super flexible so if i want to boost a couple db at 1267hz, i can without any issues. which is probably why i'm a dick about that shit. I just figure people should use the smallest rig they can as far as pedals and add ons because eventually one of those things is going to get stepped on in the middle of a show and you've become dependent and then you have a shitty show because it's missing etc.

[Crucified]

damn you bong jesus, you got me looking at pickups.

http://www.bareknucklepickups.co.uk/mai ... kup=pig_90

"The tone is truly deserving of the term 'fat' with deep, rich bottom-end, throaty mids and sweet highs. Single notes have incredible weight behind them and chords have serious intensity. High gain applications are easily handled with individual notes always sounding full and defined no matter how saturated the tone. "

THIS IS WHAT I WANT. should I do it? should I??

be wary of a manufacturers description of their own gear. everyone sucks their own dick. that being said, i haven't heard a BKP that i haven't liked.