interesting article

[Rude Boy Puff]

Oh and andrew, you said something about AA bar shows?

Unfortunately it can't happen in BC because of our liquor licenses... obviously yea this would be the best middle-ground.

There was a venue in Vancouver called mesa luna, that was able to do all ages bar because it was a resturant liquor licence. That venue ruled. I think it was the only venue Blood Brothers ever played at, because anytime wed be hanging outside people would ask what time blood brothers were playing at.

[Peter]

Oh and andrew, you said something about AA bar shows?

Unfortunately it can't happen in BC because of our liquor licenses... obviously yea this would be the best middle-ground.

There was a venue in Vancouver called mesa luna, that was able to do all ages bar because it was a resturant liquor licence. That venue ruled. I think it was the only venue Blood Brothers ever played at, because anytime wed be hanging outside people would ask what time blood brothers were playing at.

i remember that place.

there are a couple places here in vic that have a really old license, that allows them to suspend their license for a certain amount of time so that they can hold AA events, but they can't sell alochol during that time. thus, they never do it because they don't make the money if they could have their bar open. but only two in town are like that. i think Vic Events Centre may be the only AA/bar venue in town that can sell alcohol while theres minors.

[Hollow]

I've been up since 6:30 this morning, and had three classes today, so I'm not up to reading/replying to epic post Peter. I promise I will get to it, because I think it's a really important discussion to have.

I will say one thing in response to what I gathered while quickly scanning the post: your right. It is a mainly ideological issue. One that many of us aren't willing to give up in favor of more money.

[JRIA]

ive never been to an alcoholics anonymous show.

[officespace]

zing

[trappedinside]

in response to the whole all ages vs. bar thing, i'm sure it's true that if your band played Sugar you could draw tons more people than at an all-ages show but i think it works very differently within a scene such as ours. it may be true that ideology is the only reason for us to stick to playing all-ages shows but right now i would argue that victoria doesn't even really have a "hardcore" scene (or a "grindcore" scene or "crust" scene or whatever) in a strict sense, the bands in town following DIY punk ideologies/considering it important to play all-ages shows are mostly of very different styles (for instance No Eulogy, Victims Choice, Six Brew Bantha, Iskra and AK-47 all sound totally different from one another yet are bands who appear on bills with one another) and basically the main thing holding together this little community of people is that we'd all rather attend/play shows in halls or basements whereas I'm sure a lot of the people coming out to see a band like Forestry are more climateized towards bar shows anyway. I also disagree that bar shows will necessarily generate more money, I just put on a house show for some bands from San Fransisco a couple days ago and was able to pay them almost $300 (which may not sound like a lot to somebody who can sell out Sugar but they said it was the most they've ever been paid for a show) while keeping the price at a very reasonable $5, whereas had I done the show at Logan's $200 of that would have been taken out of the door right away, plus I know for a fact there were a bunch of underage kids at the house show (some of whom even traveled from upisland) and honestly I think lots of people in our community are somewhat disinclined towards attending a show if it's at a bar vs. if it's all-ages, or at least I know I am, and it's not like any of the people who frequent Logans are going to be all that interested in seeing these kinds of bands. It just wouldn't have been as much fun had it taken place at Logans either which is really what we're all in this for anyway. I hope this diatrabe made some kind of sense.

[ZACH ATTACK]

hardcore/punk has no place in a bar. Plain and simple. Anyone and everyone should be able to attend. It doesn't matter if only a handfull of people are underage, that's still a handfull of kids who can't enjoy the show and see a band they love because they aren't old enough.

**Disclaimer: "Anyone and everyone" refers to anyone who is respectful. Save the pointless replies like "then by that logic you should allow white power skins at your shows".

I've played bar shows. I've played all ages shows. Both were fun, and anybody who didn't like the venue was more than welcome not to support the shows. Anybody who's not in my band and has issue with the shows my band plays can suck my left one. If you don't agree with what a band does that's fine, feel free not to support them (case in point: I don't support against me anymore), but none of us are so high and mighty that we get to dictate how punk rock should exist.

[shakehurst]

none of us are so high and mighty that we get to dictate how punk rock should exist.

[Peter]

in response to the whole all ages vs. bar thing, i'm sure it's true that if your band played Sugar you could draw tons more people than at an all-ages show but i think it works very differently within a scene such as ours. it may be true that ideology is the only reason for us to stick to playing all-ages shows but right now i would argue that victoria doesn't even really have a "hardcore" scene (or a "grindcore" scene or "crust" scene or whatever) in a strict sense, the bands in town following DIY punk ideologies/considering it important to play all-ages shows are mostly of very different styles (for instance No Eulogy, Victims Choice, Six Brew Bantha, Iskra and AK-47 all sound totally different from one another yet are bands who appear on bills with one another) and basically the main thing holding together this little community of people is that we'd all rather attend/play shows in halls or basements whereas I'm sure a lot of the people coming out to see a band like Forestry are more climateized towards bar shows anyway. I also disagree that bar shows will necessarily generate more money, I just put on a house show for some bands from San Fransisco a couple days ago and was able to pay them almost $300 (which may not sound like a lot to somebody who can sell out Sugar but they said it was the most they've ever been paid for a show) while keeping the price at a very reasonable $5, whereas had I done the show at Logan's $200 of that would have been taken out of the door right away, plus I know for a fact there were a bunch of underage kids at the house show (some of whom even traveled from upisland) and honestly I think lots of people in our community are somewhat disinclined towards attending a show if it's at a bar vs. if it's all-ages, or at least I know I am, and it's not like any of the people who frequent Logans are going to be all that interested in seeing these kinds of bands. It just wouldn't have been as much fun had it taken place at Logans either which is really what we're all in this for anyway. I hope this diatrabe made some kind of sense.

obviously house shows there are a lot of money to be made because you have ZERO overhead, which is obviously awesome. And $300 is a SHIT load! I wish I got paid 300 dollars for the house shows we (forestry) played in our time. we made 80 once in Kamloops. That was great! (and the sold out Sugar comment was NOT about Forestry... that would have been cool though...)

Its also worth mentioning most of my favorite Forestry shows ever played were some form of All Ages...

[dalamar501]

just think often a bar would be a better alternative to the shows, so you could better pay the out-of-towners coming all this way.

I like to keep shows all ages i know there is a better chance of paying out of town band more by having bar shows. That being said the bands we bring to town are usually amazed at getting the $200-$300 we give them. Anyways the reason i quoted this section is that besides the point of leaving out young people (which at the moment i really want to push in this city to get more young kids out at hardcore shows) is that I tend to bring more American bands into town. The way we do it legally with border papers is they have to NOT be playing a bar. Otherwise it is like $500 work visa or more just for one date.
LAME

[Jordan f.]

hardcore/punk has no place in a bar. Plain and simple. Anyone and everyone should be able to attend. It doesn't matter if only a handfull of people are underage, that's still a handfull of kids who can't enjoy the show and see a band they love because they aren't old enough.

**Disclaimer: "Anyone and everyone" refers to anyone who is respectful. Save the pointless replies like "then by that logic you should allow white power skins at your shows".

I've played bar shows. I've played all ages shows. Both were fun, and anybody who didn't like the venue was more than welcome not to support the shows. Anybody who's not in my band and has issue with the shows my band plays can suck my left one. If you don't agree with what a band does that's fine, feel free not to support them (case in point: I don't support against me anymore), but none of us are so high and mighty that we get to dictate how punk rock should exist.

not gonna bother going back and forth over this but I stand by my original post 100%.

[Rude Boy Puff]

hardcore/punk has no place in a bar. Plain and simple. Anyone and everyone should be able to attend. It doesn't matter if only a handfull of people are underage, that's still a handfull of kids who can't enjoy the show and see a band they love because they aren't old enough.

**Disclaimer: "Anyone and everyone" refers to anyone who is respectful. Save the pointless replies like "then by that logic you should allow white power skins at your shows".

I've played bar shows. I've played all ages shows. Both were fun, and anybody who didn't like the venue was more than welcome not to support the shows. Anybody who's not in my band and has issue with the shows my band plays can suck my left one. If you don't agree with what a band does that's fine, feel free not to support them (case in point: I don't support against me anymore), but none of us are so high and mighty that we get to dictate how punk rock should exist.

not gonna bother going back and forth over this but I stand by my original post 100%.

Fairwearther.

Oi Oi SKINHEAD GET YOUR HAIR CUT

[shakehurst]

That being said the bands we bring to town are usually amazed at getting the $200-$300 we give them.

Any town consistently bringing in that amount of money from all ages shows shouldn't really need to have a discussion on "more bar shows to pay bands more". Given the ferry ride is going to cost them their life savings if the band brings their giant van and that's not really any money to be made in that case (in which I would suspect the bar shows are paying, what, $300-$500?). If they walk on/share gear, that is a boatload of coin right there. And if local/island bands are able to get that much money from shows... I'm really scratching my head as to why this discussion is even happening. I don't care if shows are at bars or not, but with that amount of money coming in it seems unnecessary to even have a discussion about it.

[Peter]

just think often a bar would be a better alternative to the shows, so you could better pay the out-of-towners coming all this way.

[...]is that I tend to bring more American bands into town. The way we do it legally with border papers is they have to NOT be playing a bar. Otherwise it is like $500 work visa or more just for one date.

I didnt know that.

Also, I would like to change my opinion slightly.

Clearly I was going on experience, thats how opinions are made. But I have almost never been paid as much doing an AA show as some of the numbers thrown around (200-300!) when Forestry went on tour all the AA shows we played we got around the 120 mark (unless it was a bigger show, there were a couple...), so thats just what I assumed was the norm. Clearly I was wrong, and it's nice to know i was in this sense. I still think bar shows sometimes WOULD be better, as sound is often leaves a lot to be desired and bars have that advantage, but I'm glad that bands are getting paid as much as they are. Really glad. Clearly when this hardcore band I'm working on gets our shit together touring may actually be viable.

[Tambro]

That being said the bands we bring to town are usually amazed at getting the $200-$300 we give them.

Any town consistently bringing in that amount of money from all ages shows shouldn't really need to have a discussion on "more bar shows to pay bands more". Given the ferry ride is going to cost them their life savings if the band brings their giant van and that's not really any money to be made in that case (in which I would suspect the bar shows are paying, what, $300-$500?). If they walk on/share gear, that is a boatload of coin right there. And if local/island bands are able to get that much money from shows... I'm really scratching my head as to why this discussion is even happening. I don't care if shows are at bars or not, but with that amount of money coming in it seems unnecessary to even have a discussion about it.

Often this money is out of promoter's pockets.

edit: I shouldn't say often, but certainly sometimes.

[Hollow]

That being said the bands we bring to town are usually amazed at getting the $200-$300 we give them.

Any town consistently bringing in that amount of money from all ages shows shouldn't really need to have a discussion on "more bar shows to pay bands more". Given the ferry ride is going to cost them their life savings if the band brings their giant van and that's not really any money to be made in that case (in which I would suspect the bar shows are paying, what, $300-$500?). If they walk on/share gear, that is a boatload of coin right there. And if local/island bands are able to get that much money from shows... I'm really scratching my head as to why this discussion is even happening. I don't care if shows are at bars or not, but with that amount of money coming in it seems unnecessary to even have a discussion about it.

Often this money is out of promoter's pockets.

edit: I shouldn't say often, but certainly sometimes.

Too true, although I should also point out that I've yet to meet a regular promoter (myself included, when I did such things) who had a problem making sure a band got enough for the ferry and some gas afterward. We also ALWAYS encourage bands to share a van/gear and to sneak as many people on as possible.

Now, to quote one of my favorite MRR publications:

Book your own fucking life!

It's time more people stepped up and promoted in this town. We have the same five or so people doing all the shows in this town, and if my experience is any indicator, eventually you get ridiculously burnt out and tired of losing money. There needs to be a little bit more activity in this way, and I really encourage as many people who are interested to start booking shows.

A few bits of advice:

It's tough. You WILL stress out. You WILL lose money. You WILL have bands bail/get deported/refused at the border. You WILL have venues bail last minute. You WILL end up canceling a show or two. It happens. Do not get into this without understanding that it is a dirty, thankless, money-consuming job. You don't get to party, you have to work the door, you're the one yelled at if shit gets fucked in the bathroom, and you don't leave till well after everyone else does. People going to party after? Too fucking bad, you have to sweep. Oh, meet up at Alzu's? Too fucking bad, you just found graffiti in the bathroom. Get over it, move on, and man (OR LADY) up.

All that aside, it can be one of the most rewarding experiences in your life. Forget getting to see people you only see once a year. Forget getting thanked on mic by the band. Forget being able to say "Oh, Lewd Acts? Yeah, I know them...put on a show for them...you know, nothin' major..." (Looks off with quiet disdain and smokes). Forget all of that. One day, your going to be at the door, and some kid you've never seen before will walk in. You'll find out he's never been to a hardcore show before (or grind, or crust, or metal, or what-fucking-ever) and you'll get to watch some fifteen year old kid absolutely fall in love with something you've loved/hated for half your life. Then he'll walk out the door, and the look on his face...that look makes all the money, time, blood, sweat and tears you lost absolutely worth it.

Peter: I'm sorry, I didn't realize that you didn't know how much money we usually raise/pitch in to touring bands. I should have said something. Kind of makes the whole argument moot.

Zach: on fucking point.

[CodyCreepcore]

in response to the whole all ages vs. bar thing, i'm sure it's true that if your band played Sugar you could draw tons more people than at an all-ages show but i think it works very differently within a scene such as ours. it may be true that ideology is the only reason for us to stick to playing all-ages shows but right now i would argue that victoria doesn't even really have a "hardcore" scene (or a "grindcore" scene or "crust" scene or whatever) in a strict sense, the bands in town following DIY punk ideologies/considering it important to play all-ages shows are mostly of very different styles (for instance No Eulogy, Victims Choice, Six Brew Bantha, Iskra and AK-47 all sound totally different from one another yet are bands who appear on bills with one another) and basically the main thing holding together this little community of people is that we'd all rather attend/play shows in halls or basements whereas I'm sure a lot of the people coming out to see a band like Forestry are more climateized towards bar shows anyway. I also disagree that bar shows will necessarily generate more money, I just put on a house show for some bands from San Fransisco a couple days ago and was able to pay them almost $300 (which may not sound like a lot to somebody who can sell out Sugar but they said it was the most they've ever been paid for a show) while keeping the price at a very reasonable $5, whereas had I done the show at Logan's $200 of that would have been taken out of the door right away, plus I know for a fact there were a bunch of underage kids at the house show (some of whom even traveled from upisland) and honestly I think lots of people in our community are somewhat disinclined towards attending a show if it's at a bar vs. if it's all-ages, or at least I know I am, and it's not like any of the people who frequent Logans are going to be all that interested in seeing these kinds of bands. It just wouldn't have been as much fun had it taken place at Logans either which is really what we're all in this for anyway. I hope this diatrabe made some kind of sense.

i know at the deviated instinct show at lil fernwood which was a $6 hall show with probabaly like 150 kids there, we made enough to cover costs and give deviated something like $837! thats the most money ive ever heard of any band being paid for a diy type show. they did come from the uk so yeh.

[trappedinside]

granted it's definitely not always like that, i've been on tour and definitely some of the best paying shows have been at bars (most i've ever gotten paid for a show was like $350 or so at Gus' Pub in Halifax, but they don't take any money from the door), i've also played plenty of all-ages shows in other cities where nobody underage shows up or where a whole bunch of people show up and we don't get paid that much... we're very lucky to live somewhere that kids actually do come out and get stoekd and it's not just the same 25-35 year olds at every show as it has been for the last however many years. it's different in victoria because of the ferry, if i'm gonna bring a band here i'm gonna make absolutely sure their costs are covered because from the standpoint of an out of towner it's not really worth bothering unless you're going to make at least $200 or so (and yes I have lost money from my own pocket on putting on all-ages shows, even a fairly substantial amount one time)... the deviated instinct show as cody points out is a great example of how amazing the all-ages scene here can be, it's true that they came all the way from the UK but nobody in town really listened to them before they played here (myself included) and apparently victoria was the best show of their entire north american tour.

[shakehurst]

how all ages shows can suck: big turnout and getting paid $25 while on tour

how all ages shows can rule: paying each band on a 5-band bill $100, covering cost of the hall, and finding another $100 tucked away afterward.

how bar shows can rule: big turnout and getting paid $400 playing locally

how bar shows can suck: lame venues.

[Hollow]

how all ages shows can suck: big turnout and getting paid $25 while on tour

how all ages shows can rule: paying each band on a 5-band bill $100, covering cost of the hall, and finding another $100 tucked away afterward.

how bar shows can rule: big turnout and getting paid $400 playing locally

how bar shows can suck: lame venues.

Truth.