National socialism and music.

[wolfgang]

Also....one of my top 10 fave records of all time ios a Skrewdriver album...and I sell shirts of that album cover at my store. Skrewdriver was not a rascist band...another band by the same name (featuring one member of the first band) was...

[Hollow]

Victoria is the least culturally diverse town I've ever spent any large amount of time in...in alot of ways it reminds me of small town Alberta. That being said, I don't think we ever have to worry about WP skinheads are other visible like groups taking hold here...the town is too small and there is enough vocal opposition for that to happen. It's the non visible like groups that we have to worry about here...the racists running local businesses and in Government...ther are far too many of those in this town.

Absolutely agreed. Those racists are definitely the more insidious and dangerous types in this community. Jen was telling me there's apparently an out and out WP lawyer here in town who only takes on WP clients. Shit like that is so rare, though. Usually they're far more quiet.


Also, you know my view on that Skrewdriver record. I think it's perfectly fine to listen to/own/like that first record, but I just can't get behind it myself.

[grind/bro]

Victoria is the least culturally diverse town I've ever spent any large amount of time in...in alot of ways it reminds me of small town Alberta. That being said, I don't think we ever have to worry about WP skinheads are other visible like groups taking hold here...the town is too small and there is enough vocal opposition for that to happen. It's the non visible like groups that we have to worry about here...the racists running local businesses and in Government...ther are far too many of those in this town.

Absolutely agreed. Those racists are definitely the more insidious and dangerous types in this community. Jen was telling me there's apparently an out and out WP lawyer here in town who only takes on WP clients. Shit like that is so rare, though. Usually they're far more quiet.


Also, you know my view on that Skrewdriver record. I think it's perfectly fine to listen to/own/like that first record, but I just can't get behind it myself.

I know who you're talking about. Dude has been laughed out of the courts for years. A car slammed into his offices once too...on purpose. Dude sucks but he is irrelevant to the universe.

[Hollow]

Victoria is the least culturally diverse town I've ever spent any large amount of time in...in alot of ways it reminds me of small town Alberta. That being said, I don't think we ever have to worry about WP skinheads are other visible like groups taking hold here...the town is too small and there is enough vocal opposition for that to happen. It's the non visible like groups that we have to worry about here...the racists running local businesses and in Government...ther are far too many of those in this town.

Absolutely agreed. Those racists are definitely the more insidious and dangerous types in this community. Jen was telling me there's apparently an out and out WP lawyer here in town who only takes on WP clients. Shit like that is so rare, though. Usually they're far more quiet.


Also, you know my view on that Skrewdriver record. I think it's perfectly fine to listen to/own/like that first record, but I just can't get behind it myself.

I know who you're talking about. Dude has been laughed out of the courts for years. A car slammed into his offices once too...on purpose. Dude sucks but he is irrelevant to the universe.

That was kind of my point. By being openly WP, he's made himself completely ineffectual as a tool of any WP movement. The real dangerous ones know how to play the game, keep those kinds of things to themselves, and then push through bills and laws (or whatever) that benefit a racist agenda. Those are far more insidious and far more prolific, as Tieman said.

[classwar]

I'm always down for a hang out. Ill Intent from Seattle is coming out in March, you should come down for that and we can meet. There are a ton of other shows coming up sooner than that, but I'm not in town for them.

will be there for Ill intent, so yeah we could meet up....

[KYLESTYLE]

I read the first page of this and i really don't care about reading anymore.

This just reminds me of McCarthyism. Let's black list everyone we don't agree with by list form. I'd like to think people can make up their own minds about what is right and wrong. Actually, people probably can't. sweet. And no, I don't think I'm a fascist and although I really like Nazi propaganda and their whole aesthetic (handsome uniforms, handsome haircuts), I in no way support Nazism. That type of blind hatred makes me pretty sick.

[classwar]

I read the first page of this and i really don't care about reading anymore.

This just reminds me of McCarthyism. Let's black list everyone we don't agree with by list form. I'd like to think people can make up their own minds about what is right and wrong. Actually, people probably can't. sweet. And no, I don't think I'm a fascist and although I really like Nazi propaganda and their whole aesthetic (handsome uniforms, handsome haircuts), I in no way support Nazism. That type of blind hatred makes me pretty sick.

I am vegetarian, straight edge, Love hitler staches, Have a fetish for the army, love hitlers haircut, but put all this aside i am not a Nazi or i do not support fascism. What is to criticize from fascism and racism is not what there cultural dietary habits are or even what there fashion sense is. The idea is to criticize there ideology.

We can debate the List form all you want. Sure there are some bands in that list that are debatable if they have fascist sentiments or not. But....... like my post said before, i was in a hurry and didn't read all the way trough before posting the first message. and for this i am sorry. A very crappy mistake was made by my part. I did not want to offend anyone or label anyone a ''nazi'' for listening to certain bands, Unless of course if they where ''nazi's. But i believe the debate goes farther then that.....

What you are arguing that we should do is live and let live, to not talk about certain things because they get so polemic. Politics and religion have become taboo in today's society. Since when has it become wrong to talk about problems with everyone involved in it. I would like to know. There has been no monopoly of ideas in this thread. All i have seen is a very respectful debate revolving around national socialism and music. The problem that i have with your post is that its intention is to end debate. Is to stop the progression of ideas.

To not talk about a certain problem, be it in hardcore or in society does not make it go away, the Spanish civil war and ww2 have proven that.

Respectfully

[KYLESTYLE]

I read the first page of this and i really don't care about reading anymore.

This just reminds me of McCarthyism. Let's black list everyone we don't agree with by list form. I'd like to think people can make up their own minds about what is right and wrong. Actually, people probably can't. sweet. And no, I don't think I'm a fascist and although I really like Nazi propaganda and their whole aesthetic (handsome uniforms, handsome haircuts), I in no way support Nazism. That type of blind hatred makes me pretty sick.

I am vegetarian, straight edge, Love hitler staches, Have a fetish for the army, love hitlers haircut, but put all this aside i am not a Nazi or i do not support fascism. What is to criticize from fascism and racism is not what there cultural dietary habits are or even what there fashion sense is. The idea is to criticize there ideology.

We can debate the List form all you want. Sure there are some bands in that list that are debatable if they have fascist sentiments or not. But....... like my post said before, i was in a hurry and didn't read all the way trough before posting the first message. and for this i am sorry. A very crappy mistake was made by my part. I did not want to offend anyone or label anyone a ''nazi'' for listening to certain bands, Unless of course if they where ''nazi's. But i believe the debate goes farther then that.....

What you are arguing that we should do is live and let live, to not talk about certain things because they get so polemic. Politics and religion have become taboo in today's society. Since when has it become wrong to talk about problems with everyone involved in it. I would like to know. There has been no monopoly of ideas in this thread. All i have seen is a very respectful debate revolving around national socialism and music. The problem that i have with your post is that its intention is to end debate. Is to stop the progression of ideas.

To not talk about a certain problem, be it in hardcore or in society does not make it go away, the Spanish civil war and ww2 have proven that.

Respectfully

I never said there should be no discussion about such an issue, I just said to blanket term a series of bands, generate a list of them, and post them for people to read is kind of fascist in itself (or at least some form of top down, authoritarianism). I'm not trying to end your discussion, I really don't give a fuck, I just read your first post and all I could think of is 'BLACKLIST THE COMMIES, McCARTHY!' To me, that's bullshit. I'm not attacking your issue, just the top-down witch hunt mentality.

[tylerp]

"sorry man, I can't listen to your band, you guys were on a list once"

[classwar]

I read the first page of this and i really don't care about reading anymore.

This just reminds me of McCarthyism. Let's black list everyone we don't agree with by list form. I'd like to think people can make up their own minds about what is right and wrong. Actually, people probably can't. sweet. And no, I don't think I'm a fascist and although I really like Nazi propaganda and their whole aesthetic (handsome uniforms, handsome haircuts), I in no way support Nazism. That type of blind hatred makes me pretty sick.

I am vegetarian, straight edge, Love hitler staches, Have a fetish for the army, love hitlers haircut, but put all this aside i am not a Nazi or i do not support fascism. What is to criticize from fascism and racism is not what there cultural dietary habits are or even what there fashion sense is. The idea is to criticize there ideology.

We can debate the List form all you want. Sure there are some bands in that list that are debatable if they have fascist sentiments or not. But....... like my post said before, i was in a hurry and didn't read all the way trough before posting the first message. and for this i am sorry. A very crappy mistake was made by my part. I did not want to offend anyone or label anyone a ''nazi'' for listening to certain bands, Unless of course if they where ''nazi's. But i believe the debate goes farther then that.....

What you are arguing that we should do is live and let live, to not talk about certain things because they get so polemic. Politics and religion have become taboo in today's society. Since when has it become wrong to talk about problems with everyone involved in it. I would like to know. There has been no monopoly of ideas in this thread. All i have seen is a very respectful debate revolving around national socialism and music. The problem that i have with your post is that its intention is to end debate. Is to stop the progression of ideas.

To not talk about a certain problem, be it in hardcore or in society does not make it go away, the Spanish civil war and ww2 have proven that.

Respectfully

I never said there should be no discussion about such an issue, I just said to blanket term a series of bands, generate a list of them, and post them for people to read is kind of fascist in itself (or at least some form of top down, authoritarianism). I'm not trying to end your discussion, I really don't give a fuck, I just read your first post and all I could think of is 'BLACKLIST THE COMMIES, McCARTHY!' To me, that's bullshit. I'm not attacking your issue, just the top-down witch hunt mentality.

lets never make a list, that would be so authoritarian. When i go do the groceries i free form that shit, no list.

come on. really! Thats like saying we should never use gun's in a revolution to defend our self's because the fascists have gun's. Thats like saying never Organize to change the current situation of poor people cuz the fascist are super organized. If a proper list was made to identify NSBM and WP bands, i would use it. Regardless of what you think on the subject of ''lists''.

Thats fucked up saying some shit like that. Any how. I am anti authoritarian blablabla, and i fucking use lists everywhere for many things. I was for 4 year(out Est) A NEFAC(northeastern anarco-communist) member. so being compared to an authoritarian IS BENEATH ME!

[Mikey]

I agree with Kyle even though he has made his point clear in not giving a fuck. Making a list of bands people shouldn't listen to just sucks and if anything will draw more attention to them because they're taboo. Talking about these things, and in fact listening to them to judge for yourself seems the only appropriate answer. like breeds like, they like non-whites so we like their music and make it a big deal, they feel justified so they keep hating. This is easy to get off topic into the more extreme arguments of revolutions etc, but sticking to the topic I have to say creating a blacklist is silly. And only opens the door to more of the same, band X is WP so don't listen, band Y are against womens rights so don't listen. band z didn't vote.

tldr; A blacklist like that turns into a slope of increasingly ridiculous censorship.

[SewnFlesh]

Absolutely agreed. Those racists are definitely the more insidious and dangerous types in this community. Jen was telling me there's apparently an out and out WP lawyer here in town who only takes on WP clients. Shit like that is so rare, though. Usually they're far more quiet.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doug_Christie_(lawyer)

back about 8 years ago there was regular protests and shit but I haven't heard anything lately. Not exactly the type of guy you'd expect to show up at a hardcore show tho.

[Hollow]

Absolutely agreed. Those racists are definitely the more insidious and dangerous types in this community. Jen was telling me there's apparently an out and out WP lawyer here in town who only takes on WP clients. Shit like that is so rare, though. Usually they're far more quiet.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doug_Christie_(lawyer)

back about 8 years ago there was regular protests and shit but I haven't heard anything lately. Not exactly the type of guy you'd expect to show up at a hardcore show tho.

What are you talking about, hardcore is all about filing motions and jury selection.

[Human-Demise]

What are you talking about, hardcore is all about filing motions and jury selection.

that what all those judge songs were about, right??

[Hollow]

What are you talking about, hardcore is all about filing motions and jury selection.

that what all those judge songs were about, right??

[KYLESTYLE]

I read the first page of this and i really don't care about reading anymore.

This just reminds me of McCarthyism. Let's black list everyone we don't agree with by list form. I'd like to think people can make up their own minds about what is right and wrong. Actually, people probably can't. sweet. And no, I don't think I'm a fascist and although I really like Nazi propaganda and their whole aesthetic (handsome uniforms, handsome haircuts), I in no way support Nazism. That type of blind hatred makes me pretty sick.

I am vegetarian, straight edge, Love hitler staches, Have a fetish for the army, love hitlers haircut, but put all this aside i am not a Nazi or i do not support fascism. What is to criticize from fascism and racism is not what there cultural dietary habits are or even what there fashion sense is. The idea is to criticize there ideology.

We can debate the List form all you want. Sure there are some bands in that list that are debatable if they have fascist sentiments or not. But....... like my post said before, i was in a hurry and didn't read all the way trough before posting the first message. and for this i am sorry. A very crappy mistake was made by my part. I did not want to offend anyone or label anyone a ''nazi'' for listening to certain bands, Unless of course if they where ''nazi's. But i believe the debate goes farther then that.....

What you are arguing that we should do is live and let live, to not talk about certain things because they get so polemic. Politics and religion have become taboo in today's society. Since when has it become wrong to talk about problems with everyone involved in it. I would like to know. There has been no monopoly of ideas in this thread. All i have seen is a very respectful debate revolving around national socialism and music. The problem that i have with your post is that its intention is to end debate. Is to stop the progression of ideas.

To not talk about a certain problem, be it in hardcore or in society does not make it go away, the Spanish civil war and ww2 have proven that.

Respectfully

I never said there should be no discussion about such an issue, I just said to blanket term a series of bands, generate a list of them, and post them for people to read is kind of fascist in itself (or at least some form of top down, authoritarianism). I'm not trying to end your discussion, I really don't give a fuck, I just read your first post and all I could think of is 'BLACKLIST THE COMMIES, McCARTHY!' To me, that's bullshit. I'm not attacking your issue, just the top-down witch hunt mentality.

lets never make a list, that would be so authoritarian. When i go do the groceries i free form that shit, no list.

come on. really! Thats like saying we should never use gun's in a revolution to defend our self's because the fascists have gun's. Thats like saying never Organize to change the current situation of poor people cuz the fascist are super organized. If a proper list was made to identify NSBM and WP bands, i would use it. Regardless of what you think on the subject of ''lists''.

Thats fucked up saying some shit like that. Any how. I am anti authoritarian blablabla, and i fucking use lists everywhere for many things. I was for 4 year(out Est) A NEFAC(northeastern anarco-communist) member. so being compared to an authoritarian IS BENEATH ME!

I'm stating my declaration of not giving a fuck. Use your list, i don't REALLY care, i just think it's extremely ignorant. You think i'm ignorant. Part of me wants to actually keep arguing this and go back and forth for pages, but the majority wants to get drunk, smoke too many cigarettes, make all sorts of bad decisions for myself, and not give a fuck about this argument or your oddly shaped views.

I will also say that there is an inherent difference between a grocery list and a blacklist, but whatever floats your boat. Unless your grocery list is multi faceted and contains a black list of all the WP fruits and vegetables (obviously peaches).

Keep your stick on the ice.

[classwar]

I'm stating my declaration of not giving a fuck. Use your list, i don't REALLY care, i just think it's extremely ignorant. You think i'm ignorant. Part of me wants to actually keep arguing this and go back and forth for pages, but the majority wants to get drunk, smoke too many cigarettes, make all sorts of bad decisions for myself, and not give a fuck about this argument or your oddly shaped views.

I will also say that there is an inherent difference between a grocery list and a blacklist, but whatever floats your boat. Unless your grocery list is multi faceted and contains a black list of all the WP fruits and vegetables (obviously peaches).

Keep your stick on the ice.

I believe there is a disconnect between practice and theory about not having a ''black list''. I can understand the concept behind what you are saying. Yes i am agreeing with you on a theoretical aspect of this debate.

But in practice i wanna know who and what bands are WP. That way when they come to town. I wanna be there confronting them, booting them out of town. Fascism spreads just like any other thing or scene. Cultural events like show are a good way to recruit and convert for Blood and Honor. Just like for straight edge, we have shows, kids come and see that being drug free is cool in a way, they get hooked. The racists and fascist do the same. So to conclude, on a practical level it is useful to know who they are and what they are. ''know your enemy''.

Also i would like to add that i did not wright this ''black list''. I found it doing a quick and fast search. This list may not be accurate like others have mentioned, and for that i am sorry. And i feel hostility in what you say. i do not wish to offend anyone and would like to keep this debate formal. thanks,

[ZACH ATTACK]

The only problem with the list classwar posted is that it was poorly researched and out of date, and as a result contained factually wrong information that was more than likely included to suit the ADL's political agenda. Now assuming however, that creating any list of bands (or anybody in the public eye really) with white power politics is somehow McCarthiest in nature (which it isn't because as far as I know nobody has been summoned to VIHC Committee on Unpunx Activities where the onus is on them to prove that they aren't nazis because somebody said they were without offering any evidence and the best way to prove that they aren't is to throw other innocent people under the bus), what then is a better way for normal every day to make informed decisions about artists that might want to support? We know from the historical record that ignoring racist elements does absolutely nothing to stop them, so what's the better alternative? If anything we should be doing more to put WP bands in the spotlight so everybody knows who they are and can then make informed decisions about them. Live and let live only works when the people you're dealing don't want to actively harm everybody who doesn't have the same colour skin as them or subscribe to their world view. "Don't give them their freedom because there not going to give you yours." But then again, it's pretty easy to be white kid in one of the whitest places in the country and not give a fuck about bands or people with white power politics.

[canon.docre]

lets never make a list, that would be so authoritarian. When i go do the groceries i free form that shit, no list.

I never thought about it like that. I am interested in what you have to say and would like to subscribe to your newsletter.

[classwar]

lets never make a list, that would be so authoritarian. When i go do the groceries i free form that shit, no list.

I never thought about it like that. I am interested in what you have to say and would like to subscribe to your newsletter.

dont have one