VIHC.net VAN ISLE HARDCORE BOARD

Dear Victoria residents,

I went trolling around the internet for an e-forum to spread a bit of gratitude to the general populace of your fine city and stumbled upon this arena. I read the other thread and, while I don't make a habit of responding to internet chatter, I thought it would be a good idea to expand upon my admittedly rushed and imperfect "stage banter." Thusly (and in no particular order):

1) Stay-at-home-mothers: There is no great root of evil inherit in a mother that chooses to stay home and rear children. In fact, I have plenty of vitriol for mothers like my sister that take on high paying jobs and leave 8 hours of daily child rearing to a familial outsider who leaves her own children behind just to scrape by on a shitty nanny wage. But I digress. Perhaps it is better to explain the impetus for the song/rant/sentiment/etc. Which was: I work with a batch of (mostly 40+ year old) women as one part of a team of special education therapists in a local school. Two of said 40+ women come in everyday complaining about their job, their husbands, their unruly children, their "pathetic" husbands, and on and on and on. They very rarely come in with any sort of positive spirit, save for the days when American Idol or Lost has been of particular interest. What has become very apparent to me is that these women do not go to work because they love what they do (i.e. helping children) but because it is a job that allows them to get off at 3pm and head home. They do not seem excited about life. They do not seem excited about much of anything. And while I know that I am far from Mr. Happy Go Lucky, I know that working in close proximity to these women and hearing their (very typical) tales of familial monotony and seeing just how hard it is for them to feel passionately about ANYTHING...all of this has laid waste to my desire to couple, copulate, reproduce, and white-picket-fence myself into suburbia. I hope that the lyrics make more sense than whatever it is that I said because my true feeling is that I'm not better than these women, that (in fact) I know them very well because I am the product of one. My only hope is to avoid becoming a bitter person that needs melodramatic familial woes to give my life enough spice to sustain the desire to live. I don't think it's wrong to despise this lifestyle, even if I do not necessarily despise the practitioners of it. It's the only way for me to avoid falling into the same patterns.

2) Suicide: There is no easy way to approach this topic. What I do believe is that human beings (myself included) have a very difficult time coming to grips with just how insignificant we all are. It is my belief that, regardless of however peaceful and superhealthy and ageless and intelligent human beings become, the supernova of the sun is never to be avoided. And, in astronomical time scales, human beings are the equivalent of dust. We simply do not matter. It follows that things like rape, murder, solving cancer riddles, Jesus, etc do not matter either. They are simply problems or dramatic situations created by humans to make our time here seem more important. And if one comes to this conclusion, it is extremely difficult to see the point in life. This is where I am at in my quest for understanding just what the fuck I am supposed to be doing. Because the fact is, I do not want to kill myself. I rather enjoy living. And my urge for suicide is present (I do have the desire to know what if feels like just before I take my own life), yet dormant, very dormant, and will be invoked much later on in my life. But why is it not here right this second? My only real answer for that is because I have been able to make other people enjoy life more. I have been able to make small sections of the world better. And that makes me feel worth. And while I would very much like to be the man that gets to go around the earth and decide whether someone is making full use of his life or not and either hand out a gun or an award, I am not that man. It is difficult for me to refrain from juding other people, but even more difficult for me to refrain from judging my own life. I am far from perfect and spend way too much of my life wasting it (perhaps on internet sites like this). However, I do believe that it is our responsibility as humans to push the limits of our efficiency and usefulness. I believe that most humans on earth are moving away from these ends (efficiency and usefulness), and they are extremely important to me. I am not shy about expressing a general argument for suicide to people who aren't pursuing these ends. The aim is not to encourage them to pull the trigger but, conversely, for them to realize that if they (I/we) are going to go on living, we have to expect more of ourselves.

3) A young man approached me at our show in Tacoma and informed me that until he had listen to our new record he had been contemplating very seriously the aim of suicide. He felt trapped into AP classes and his good grades and going to college. He said that our record made him feel as though he was only thinking about suicide because he didn't really feel deep down inside that college was the life he wanted and the record gave him the notion to start expecting other things out of life. This all made me very happy and while I know that it's not a common occurrence, I felt like this young man and I were on the same page and the world felt better.

4) Tyler: I love your humor and sarcasm.

5) The "thank you" still stands. We are continually humbled by our experience in Victoria.

6) I am bored with people who use my education as a talking point when they question our sincerity as a band. There are no "shock tactics" involved with DANGERS. Perhaps the real issue is that there are no black and white ideas and, as a front man and squawkbox for our band, I am often put on the spot to come up with explanations for our music. There is no easy way to convey the complex ideas/emotions we are trying to express. Mostly our band wants me to shut up. But I keep trying and failing to figure out how to present our music. Apologies.

7) At the very least I can be glad that a dialogue like this is started.

8) All-ages venues are exactly the place for these types of ideas to be discussed. I believe that the younger we are when we start pondering the truly valuable dilemmas of life, the more prepared we will later be to confront them when they come roaring down our throat.

9) The all-night waitress at Alzu's is extremely nice and knowledgeable.

Goodnight.
al / dangers

Al I made some cheap shots in my post. It was less to slag some dude on the internet I dont know then to release the negativity thats builds inside me everytime I hear or read your words. I dont find it positive, thought provoking ,or insightful. To me it just makes me think "Fuck You" and I dont need that kind of bad ju ju in my life. I can get behind the "get off your ass and do something" message but the way you say it makes my blood boil so I spent that night doing something more productive.

Thanks for coming to Victoria I hope the show was good and I hope I in no way discourage your return.

Al Brown rolls a 20, does critical damage to the perceptions some may have had. I missed the show, but appreciate your sentiment and ideas. Your band is something I should definitely check out, from what I understand of your views.

sorry if i chipped your tooth al (pretty sure it wasnt me, the impending video of this show will tell though haha)

Once again thank you guys for coming out as well.


Also thank you for bringing in the mail. Well at least i think it was you guys who did.

also point #9 = truth.

I'm glad you came on here to actually defend yourself. Shows guts.

Al, thanks for coming on and chatting. I agree with most of what you said there, although it's not surprising. We tend to agree on a lot. I'm sorry I missed you guys, but I'm glad everything went well.

Puff, that was the classiest way to apologize without backing down I've ever seen. We need to hang out soon.

See you jerks tomorrow. Seattle continues to be beautiful. I wish I could stay here longer.

-Willa

Hollow wrote: Seattle continues to be beautiful. I wish I could stay here longer.

i wish i was in seattle.

A caveat: I do not agree with the sentiment on suicide. I agree with the thought process behind what he's saying, but I find that it's too broad, and uses really improper language. Al, come on back and discuss this with me. I have points. And charts.


And Troy, I wish I was here for longer than a night.

FLOW CHARTS

Hey guys. I still like message boards. But I wanted to say thank you to all of the bands that played the show and the ongoing support you've shown AK even though we haven't been around much these days. Sorry to Victim's Choice who I said could borrow my gear, and then failed to even show up for their set (we had to load up late because of a baby thing. my band has had 4 babies! one reason we've been AWOL). Thank you to Ebony, Troy, Willa and the crew for pulling this shit together, I know Ebony especially went through a lot to make it happen. I want to thank Bubba for taking 900 photographs. Thank you Alzu's for supplying me with 4 cups of coffee. Thank you Alfred for creeping the hell out of someone on my phone who didn't even have my phone number. Just your face on her screen. I've seen her since. She cried.

tl;dr- THANKS. SORRY. THANKS.

Perhaps the real issue is that there are no black and white ideas and, as a front man and squawkbox for our band, I am often put on the spot to come up with explanations for our music. There is no easy way to convey the complex ideas/emotions we are trying to express. Mostly our band wants me to shut up. But I keep trying and failing to figure out how to present our music. Apologies.

I relate to this incredibly. and I am really glad you were able to explain your thoughts and opinions to those of us who don't have your experiences on either topic. even embarrassed that we were discussing your band's views here on the internet instead of with you. but thank you for posting that and I'm sorry if my comments seemed shallow and judgemental.

Al Brown wrote: 8) All-ages venues are exactly the place for these types of ideas to be discussed. I believe that the younger we are when we start pondering the truly valuable dilemmas of life, the more prepared we will later be to confront them when they come roaring down our throat.

I also think that all ages shows are a great place for the exchange and discussion of ideas, but my problem with this is there was no discussion. The backstory to where/why you form your ideas and opinions is interesting and insightful, but was not presented at the show. My problem with your statement on suicide is that without the deeper thoughts and discussion behind it it came across as you supporting the idea of suicide in an open ended way, which I take issue with at an all ages show because there were people attending young enough to take the statement the wrong way and find validation in it for their own suicidal thoughts.

That's amazing that someone told you your words and ideas were enough to turn them from considering suicide, but do you not see the danger of your words also going the other way?

I don't know if you will check this again, Al, so maybe this is dust in the wind, but I agree with almost all of that, and I respect you for coming on here and explaining yourself. I think that's really what was needed because in 30 seconds between a song, you can get out a general idea or feeling, but not an explanation or defense. This I understand, and I am grateful that you chose to do so in this forum. I understand, as a member of a band, this kind of thing can be really fucking lame - people who don't know you, discussing the merit of you and your band - and I just want to say that, this particular board, though still a silly message board, is full of people in a small, defined community, all on a first name basis. We seem to keep each other in check for the most part. Also, it's pretty easy going and, if anything, most of us like discussion and discourse, which is probably why that bit on your band came up.

Also, I'd have to agree that humans should approach subjects like suicide early on in life, though, as I said, the time in-between songs for banter, is just simply not enough to convey full arguments for these ideas, and some, more immature minds, cannot follow the logical thought process, and simply fall into a black and white realm. I think? I don't know...

aha, Andrew, you must have posted that right before me, or maybe i missed it, but we said the same thing.

Well, this all seems more productive now, so that's a good thing at least.

In terms of the all-ages nature of the show, I'm of two distinct mindsets. First of all, I don't think age has much to do with maturity. There could be 40-year-old men at our shows that are of fragile enough character for my/our words to tip them towards suicide. The question is therefor not if discussing suicide in an all-ages venue is appropriate but if discussing suicide in a compartmentalized, haphazard way is appropriate. By the reaction of most people here I feel it is easy to lean toward the notion that I/we should be much more calculating and explanatory when discussing suicide not just in an all-ages forum but in at any public event period. It is obviously a sensitive subject and the cursory nature with which I approached it could very well lead to someone's death.

I suppose.

The other side of me is a bit more defensive and pragmatic. One idea I return to is: no one killed themselves after the show, did they? Another thought I return to is: can anyone other than the suicide victim be blamed for the suicide? Surely there are situational influences in the shape of heartbreak, abuse, boredom, music, etc., but the decision for killing yourself (or, say, murdering people at your suburban Colorado high school) ultimately rests upon your own shoulders, and tracing the blame to a punk band or video game or violent movie seems a bit reductionist.

Probably there is a happy medium. Probably I need more time with performing these songs to perfect my preamble. Some of those songs were performed for the first or second time in Victoria and, what's more, the stupid sampler that is supposed to play Brautigan quotes and jazz interludes was broken so I was taken unawares when a speech-type-thing proved necessary to fill the guitar tuning void. Blah.

Listen, some of the best minds of our world have resorted to suicide. Some of the people I most respect in history have committed suicide. I do believe in prescribed death, especially because (for me) it forces me to get more out of my day to day than I normally would. I have things that need to get done before a certain time, and the decision to kill myself in the future helps me get those things done. Sort of like how a deadline helps get a final paper written. Only my paper is my life and I'm only being graded on how much and fully I live my life.

Our record was written with these people in mind: Richard Brautigan, Kurt Vonnegut, Sylvia Plath, Mitch Hedberg, Kurt Cobain, Yukio Mishima, Hemingway, uncles, aunts, friends, personal acquaintances, etc. All of whom either committed - or attempted to commit - suicide. It has been on my brain heavily over the past few years. I don't mean to pollute others with unnecessary doldrums, but, for me, the pen writes lyrics that the brain can't stop circulating.

I'll work on my speeches.

Al

Jodi: did she really cry?
Jodi: I'll email you soon.

I know what you mean I was totally into Dissection but then John Nodtveidt blew his brains out.

Al Brown wrote: I suppose.

The other side of me is a bit more defensive and pragmatic. One idea I return to is: no one killed themselves after the show, did they? Another thought I return to is: can anyone other than the suicide victim be blamed for the suicide? Surely there are situational influences in the shape of heartbreak, abuse, boredom, music, etc., but the decision for killing yourself (or, say, murdering people at your suburban Colorado high school) ultimately rests upon your own shoulders, and tracing the blame to a punk band or video game or violent movie seems a bit reductionist.

I do not feel that you would be responsible for someone taking their own life based on your words. Everyone is responsible for their own decisions.
But just because people are responsible for their own decisions doesn't mean what you say doesn't have weight or influence. Why did you feel happy when the guy told you your new record made him rethink committing suicide? Because you felt like you touched that person in a positive way. That your words meant something to someone else. Why do you feel like it cannot have the opposite effect? Correct me if I'm wrong, but it feels a bit like you want credit for the good influence but not the bad influence.

I don't understand why you mention that many great people took their own lives? How many of those people were also troubled by mental instability, depression or addiction that lead to their suicide vs. it being a rational decision they chose?

Yo dudes, if I ever kill myself, I am going to write a novel of an explanation. Don't ever read it though. I'm sure if I come to the conclusion that suicide is my only bet, then I'll have some pretty solid excuses.

i wasn't happy because the young man didn't kill himself. his family and friends, no doubt, were (knowingly or not). truthfully, i would never have known one way or the other had he gone through with it. and while i may espouse to universal empathy, i'm yet incapable.

what i was happy about was that the young man got closer to his own notion of what/how his life should go forth. any pride or happiness i feel emanated from his having cut away a bit more of the fat from his life. as was stated, i love efficiency, purpose, sense of meaning. i am happy that we could have had a little part in his coming to a better articulated view of these things.

i do not want credit for the good and not the bad, i just don't think there has been much in the way of bad influence yet (at least on this topic). as was stated, i wholeheartedly agree that a better, more thoughtful explanation of the song/its meaning was necessary. and, should my words "influence" someone to suicide, i suppose i would probably have to reevaluate my opinion regarding this matter. (and, no, i don't want to have to wait until it gets there just to change my approach...)

as is, what's seems at work between you and i is a much more fundamental disagreement on the merits and import of suicide. (and, yes, i have been close to people that have killed themselves.) most of me sees the things you listed (mental instability, depression, addiction) as some of the most beautiful/intriguing/important aspects of the human experience. one could quote from a plethora of sources, but i'll stick with a Baudelaire poem:

You must always be intoxicated.
That sums it all up: it's the only question.
In order not to feel the horrible burden of Time
which breaks your back and bends you down to earth,
you must be unremittingly intoxicated.
But on what? Wine, poetry, virtue, as you please.
But never be sober.
And if it should chance that sometimes, on the steps of
a palace, on the green grass of a ditch, in the bleak
solitude of your room, you wake up and your intoxication
has already diminished or disappeared, ask the wind,
the wave, the star, the bird, the clock, ask everything
that sings, everything that speaks, ask them what time
it is and the wind, the wave, the star, the bird, the clock
will reply: It's time to be intoxicated!
If you do not wish to be one of the tortured slaves of
Time, never be sober; never ever be sober! Use wine, poetry
or virtue, as you please.

perhaps sub out "wine, poetry, or virtue," for madness, depression, sanity. i truthfully don't think any life is better off for having forgone these experiences. on the contrary, i think these experiences - whether they result in suicide or not - are far more worthwhile than fifty years of monotony rinse wash repeat teeth flossing hell. that is MY belief. be it a life of 65 years or 12, the great extremities of the human experience are (to me) far more worthwhile than extended vamping on comfortable habits and scheduled living. most of me believes that i would trade my life for just one moment of hunter s. walking the hotel lobby or yukio mishima with the blade up to the hilt. i'm mostly embarrassed of my timidity, of the fact that i'm too chickenshit to get to these places yet. i am stuck on the notion that there may be something better tomorrow, some experience i NEED to have, but realistically speaking, this is never the case and it's all some genetic desire to persist that mucks up my romantic notion of how i'd LIKE to be living.

i would rather 20 years at volume ten with a needle in my arm than 60 with a nice plot with flowers on top.
but i am too scared.
and sideswiped by familial love and the outlandish idea that i MATTER.
i very much envy the madmen and madwomen.
and stand in awe of their resolve.
i don't think suicide is a good thing.
but it is mysterious.
and i choose to believe that there is a greater truth one arrives at when on suicide's doorstep.
falsely or not.
this is no glorification.
but i am not the spokesman for an at-all-cost avoidance of death.
for some, life may hold no more powerful event.
even if - or, perhaps, BECAUSE - it is so fleeting.

with very much respect,
al