The Fuck Hardcore Shows Manifesto

[KYLESTYLE]

this was posted on someone's tumblr as a personal rant by said female. It's interesting and points out exactly what I don't understand about the hardcore community since day one. Obviously people will disagree with it, but it's worth a read:


"it’s one of those things where you avoid something you take issue with for a while, and then suddenly find yourself in the middle of it, and it catches you off guard, ill-prepared, and you start fuming.

i went to see envy at reggie’s last night (amazing, by the way!). one of the opening bands was trash talk. it was funny, because the first two bands were some instrumental band from belfast and touche amore, and although kids were going nuts and singing along, it was no big deal. then trash talk came out. immediately, a huge pit formed in front of the stage, squishing almost everyone else back against the back wall. and then the familiar scene began.

pacing back and forth, posturing aggressively, stomping, kicking, punching, violently flailing arms. two dudes accidentally knocked into each other and started posturing at each other and shit talking, needing to be separated before a fight. kids crisscrossed the room, performing one of the most extreme versions of macho masculinity ever to dilute the political bases of punk rock. because this violence isn’t even raw and reactionary; it’s planned, staged, practiced. it privileges machismo unquestioningly. it privileges the antiquated notion that dudes can’t control themselves and need to blow off steam violently because men will be men. it’s such an obvious fucking farce.

when i watch this shit happen, i think to myself, of COURSE i felt like a weird outsider a lot during a certain time of my growing up in punk… all of my friends were dudes and we always went to hardcore shows. i couldn’t win, because there was barely any room for a different way to enjoy shows; you either had to perform the type of violent masculinity going on in the pit, or stand in the back and be accused of being a punk rock girlfriend who only holds coats and can’t hang with the big boys (or find a way around that which is still privileged, like taking photos or tabling). and either way you’re pitted in competition with other girls, because the dudes compare you to the other girls involved on a scale of who’s conforming to hardcore dude standards the best, most worthy of being accepted into their group on their level, on their terms. the prevalent thread at hardcore shows is a dichotomy of macho fucking bullshit.

the weird thing is that i love a lot of hardcore music. i love listening to it, and i always have, especially amazing bands like sick fix which subvert these standards as much as possible from within the genre. i just can’t fucking stand how this stuff is often acted out at shows.

pop punk dudes may often be sad misogynists, but at least i can go up to the front where i can actually SEE a band during a pop punk show and sing along and know i’m not going to get punched in the head by some beefy posturing asshole who probably has a tiny dick, a nike shoe collection and is an aloof jerk to the women he dates. that’s why i got INTO punk, to get away from that mainstream dude mentality of entitlement and privilege and to be critical of that kind of performance. to be faced with it is a slap in the face, literally. and i’m not fucking interested.

i know that people who like going to hardcore shows might read this, and may disagree with me or be super offended. that’s fine. you should think about why exactly that is though. you might think, jen doesn’t know what she’s talking about, she just doesn’t get it. wrong, i do know. i’ve been going to hardcore shows for 10 years and i’ve performed all of these roles at some point, and seen them performed. i’m interested in subversion and revolution, but not the kind that involves dick measuring contests. radical counterculture politics like veganism and straight edge lose meaning when they are performed in such an oppressive environment without questioning it."

(source: http://jtwigg365.tumblr.com/)

[officespace]

yeah yeah yeah blah blah blah. "I don't like hardcore because it's violent". I find this pretty funny how she seems upset that females are being degraded in the hardcore scene but is quick to say " well if that dude moshes hard he must have a small dick and a collection of shoes". Also I do not see how hardcore "pits" are any less planned and reactionary then say a Screeching Weasel "pit" just because they are more violent.



-Warren

[Human-Demise]

yeah, i might not like that goofy hardcore whatever it is shes referring to, but what i dont like is that shes criticizing they way people have fun and vent, that anybody who does just has to be a macho meathead, (stereo-typing) and that it has to do with men showing of and acting tough, when maybe it has to do with: violent music = violent action. and can get behind the arms swinging stomping whatever is dumb as hell, what i cant get behind is that anything like that some how makes a man a "beefy posturing asshole who probably has a tiny dick, a nike shoe collection and is an aloof jerk to the women he dates." which has to do with their personality, not they way they listen to music in a live setting.

also warren gets it.

[Tambro]

I agree with parts, add in my opinion to all of the following:

There is a lot of macho bullshit in hardcore. I take part in it sometimes. However, I also don't think that just because I like to two step I'm a meat head. It is an issue in hardcore, but one that I don't think really shows up in Victoria (who're the Vic Hardcore jocks? Me, Jordan, Teney, Josh? Me, Teney and Josh talk about sports at band practice while John and Will go "uhhh?" Obviously jock material.)

I also feel it's the reason I've rarely ventured outside of hardcore in Victoria, I don't think I'd like it that much. I've always felt out of place and like an outsider looking in at Vancouver hardcore shows. This is because I rarely go over and so I don't really know anyone that well anyways. This has definitely gotten better since I've been in bands and there are obviously big exceptions to that, but that's just my general feeling at Vancouver hardcore shows.

None of this probably made sense.

[officespace]

Of course I am not saying there is not meatheads in hardcore because of course there is, but each musical genre has there stupid people in it. Punk has people that seem to treat you like shit if you don't wear patches and and pop punk has a lot of " oh me, oh my I am such a dork I will never get a GF even though girls actually think I am cute and I was pretty fucking cool in high school".


-Warren

[grind/bro]

Great article. However, the older I get the more I feel like I'm growing away from all this "OMG SHOW DRAMA" business, I don't give a fuck. Honestly, I've been sort of bored at a lot of live shows lately. I have a better time listening to music on my iPod, walking around downtown or bussing to school.

[Jordan f.]

.......the 90's called, they want their argument back.

[PaulyHC]

this was posted on someone's tumblr as a personal rant by said female. It's interesting and points out exactly what I don't understand about the hardcore community since day one. Obviously people will disagree with it, but it's worth a read:



i couldn’t win, because there was barely any room for a different way to enjoy shows; you either had to perform the type of violent masculinity going on in the pit, or stand in the back and be accused of being a punk rock girlfriend who only holds coats and can’t hang with the big boys (or find a way around that which is still privileged, like taking photos or tabling). [/url])

really? how is everything so black and white to people?

i also can agree with a few things, on principle, but as far as vihc shows, i honestly don't see alot of this at all, and id like to see some examples of it to take cred in relation to our scene.

i suppose, if you break it down, it is all a matter of proximity. scenes everywhere are different, and i wouldnt blame one type of music for the reaction and enjoyment it brings people, and how they manifest this.

violent music breeds violent reactions, I just dont get how people seem to be still bent on the fact that "everyone is going to call me "XYZ" if i do/dont do this at a show" i mean come on, really? do cliques like this exist and are some people so put off by this notion that they would refuse to participate in the live scene? maybe i just smoke too much weed at shows and dont see it happening.

id rather see a bunch of people going out and givin'er when the music hits than a bunch of people standing around and singing the lyrics in their own personal space.

i film, i rage in the pit, sometimes - i pile on, i enjoy the community aspect of it - and again, i'll re-iterate, i do not see examples of this male machismo attitude at vihc shows, and when it does surface, it is promptly extinguished in a tasteful manner.

also, i was not around for the early-mid 2000's as i was never really in victoria, even though i lived here i did contract diamond drill work all across the mainland.

so maybe things have changed?

i can see if you're not into the music, which from our conversations and interaction, it seems like hardcore just isn't your bag Kyle, but i really can't see you relating to much of what the OP complained about, the scenes just seem like opposites.

i lost my train of thought though, caught me between doobies

[xchadx]

..

[dalamar501]

Would type out more but one hand typing and it would just be my view point. Really it for me is not a problem here. Nor to my knowledge in the NW when i have been out at shows.

I read this on tumblr earlier in the week. Didn't agree with her title. hardcore manifesto? come on. Anyways not going to lie i have heard of these kind of dudes before. to me they don't represent hardcore or the community. The writer of the article fits in more to me then they would. takes so long to type so little i am out

[Jordan f.]

chad, who was that band in the 90's who wouldn't play until everyone sat down?

[Token]

I think my biggest peeve is that I don't understand how someone could expect different behaviour at a hardcore show? No one is going to sit around the stage singing Kumbaya. Having gone to various shows in Canada, the only time I've come across extreme douchebags was in Calgary. But no one likes Calgary anyways.

[dalamar501]

Envy's new stuff SUCKS (which bums me out because that band put out a few incredible albums)

i feel saddened you could not get into newer envy. i liked the progression. the split was a bit weak and didn't give much listen to the newer ep but still

[KYLESTYLE]

i can see if you're not into the music, which from our conversations and interaction, it seems like hardcore just isn't your bag Kyle, but i really can't see you relating to much of what the OP complained about, the scenes just seem like opposites.

Don't take this thing so personally, GOD. I never said this is my opinion, I just said 'hey, here's someone else's opinion it's worth looking at'. I didn't write it and I didn't say this has anything to do with VIHC. When I said it brings up some issues i've had with 'the hardcore scene' (giant blanket term for many different communities separated by different cultures and geographies) I meant with hardcore dancing and the 'going mad and violent' thing. That's my view, I didn't say it's dumb, I just don't get it and I'm glad someone else sees it. Again, no panties in a bunch, this is someone else's words, not mine.

[stumped.]

this is something i've struggled with for awhile since going to shows. i used to be 100% anti-hardcore dancing based on arguments like this one, but since i've started going to hardcore shows regularly i've gotten used to the kind of dancing she's referring to, met more people who are into and discovered that they aren't meatheads or misogynists (the ones i talk to anyway), and even started doing it myself. however when i dance i try to keep in mind the things that put me off so much in the past. for instance slamming near the edges of crowds where people who aren't down stand can take a fist in the chin, side to siding and smashing the people who are standing into the walls. its just about respecting the other people at the show while you have fun. and if something happens take accountability for the accident ect ect ect just etiquette and shit y'know?
yeah the bands she saw are shitty, and it seems like the crowd was even worse (who tries to pick a fight when you collide with a dude who was doing the same thrashy, flaily moves?), but she still has a point. for people who are new to hardcore shows a style of dancing like this can be really alienating. its really violent and dangerous compared to the usual push-mosh and pogo stuff. for alot of people its enough to make them completely drop hardcore as something they'd be interested in. there have been alot of girls and smaller dudes i've tried to take to shows because they like the music, but feel unsafe/out of place at shows because they're scared about getting tagged by the huge guy windmilling in the pit. i could get past it because i used to box and was accustomed with taking the odd hit.
there's always the argument that the pit is like an escape from your shitty life and a chance to let off steam blah blah blah, but hardcore is also something where you can go to shows and feel like you're apart of something. for alot of people that means getting close to the stage, singing along, being able to get close to the band thats playing as opposed to being separated by 10 feet of fences and security. but alot of the time that aspect of it gets downplayed, because people aren't keen on the aggressive aspect and don't want to risk getting punched in the head, which is reasonable. but like pauly said, its boring to go to shows and not see anyone moving (anyone from vancouver can attest to this) its just an issue of everyone respecting each other.
with that aside, this lady is pretty whack to claim that anyone dancing like that is a "beefy posturing asshole who probably has a tiny dick, a nike shoe collection and is an aloof jerk to the women he dates." i'm by no means beefy, i one pair of nikes and my girlfriend thinks i'm a cool guy most of the time. what she's doing is generalizing, and based on her being into "subversion and revolution" and being political enough to post stuff like this on the internet, shes probably written another piece harassing someone else for doing the same. like chad said, she just has to stop going to shitty hardcore shows.
or move to vancouver.

[stumped.]

chad, who was that band in the 90's who wouldn't play until everyone sat down?

the best one?

[age of quarrel]

cool some fucking idiot writing a blanket statement of an article because she didnt like moshwizards at a trash talk show. no one likes mosh wizards besides other mosh wizards. I am really glad this "manifesto" opened my eyes to the out of control misogynist attitudes in hardcore. clearly its much worse than every other music community right? much worse than the bar scene right? much worse then pretty well the entire world right. this girl should stop writing stupid shit and go watch punch play a set.
also its good to know my aggressive action during aggressive music being played by weirdos like me paired with the nikes I own implies I have a tiny penis as though that is a productive argument.

[age of quarrel]

beefy posturing asshole who probably has a tiny dick, a nike shoe collection and is an aloof jerk to the women he dates.

chad, you got called out heheheheheh

[darcy]

I like her article. Sure, I don't agree with a lot of the slang she is throwin' around, but I think her point is important to be heard. She feels like she is an outsider in a genre for outsiders. I think the essence of her article speaks to those of us who find parts of our own 'subculture' weird. "Oh, you like that band?", "What do you mean you don't drink or do drugs but don't identify with Straightedge?"... These are all arguments we've seen or heard and I think her's is one that has been going on since the 80's. It's important to understand the implications of what she is saying, her kneejerk reactions, and to see the kneejerk reactions that are in reply. I'm not saying "Can't we all get along and find the middle ground.", but I am saying that I think it is important to not throw out the baby with the bathwater.

[keep_it_real]

skipped going to see envy last weekend, and i'm glad. the 2005 me would have loved to be there, but meh. reading this article just confirms the obvious..of course it's a boys club. don't most of those bands playing that tour sing about how much girls suck/hurt them? and "destroy everything" ???

lol at trash talk in high times.