WASSUPWITHTHIS??

[keith.]

2) WOULD

i honestly do not understand your taste in women...

i dont either

[Hollow]

NEXT TIEM TEEGAN & SARA PLAY IN TOWN IMMA TAKE THEM ASIDE AND SAY DAT DEY CANNOT UZE PUNK ROWK 2 GET THEIR MAINSTREAM MUSIKZ ACROSS

First off, once again a simplistic representation of my ethics. Doesn't really piss me off, but I don't want people thinking this is what I actually believe.

Second, yes, there are a LOT of hardcore bands that rip off that logo. Quite a few of them are chumps. No question. BUT, they're still hardcore bands, and therefore get a pass. Why? Because it's OUR culture to abuse. Tegan and Sara, while no doubt Black Flag fans, do not operate in the realm of hardcore/punk rock. Do I care if they exist/make music/are popular? Nope, couldn't care less. Will I tell them to fuck off when they make a blatant attempt to profit from a culture that has shaped me in more ways than I can count? Yes. Is this a double standard? Damn right. Don't care. If you're not a part of hardcore, you don't get to use hardcore.

[grind/bro]

I completely disagree. Hardcore isn't some inclusive club for people to use things exclusively for the "scene". That is the kind of thinking that got me dragged on metal, and I think doesn't really belong in punk rock IMO. Black Flag always struck me as a band first and foremost. Genre definition is sure a good idea, but are we to sit around and claim that the culture that we enjoy and cling to is above someone who listens to another format of music? I can't be a part of that. That belongs to elitist close-minded people. Keep in mind many people in the hardcore scene wear SKINNY jeans, which are not really a development on the PUNK side of things more of a electro bred style meets efficiency for a lot of people who are bike couriers (yeah "hipsters"...). Kind of a really fashiony idea? I'm sure it's roots might even have to do with gay culture. Definately didn't start in punk rock and doesn't signify punk either. Also, how many times have you seen someone at a hardcore show wearing a flat brim hat? Yeah I've worn one. You have friends that wear them. But where are people sitting around like "OH U CANT WARE DAT ITS 4 BLACK PPL". They exist and only to suck the fun out of everything around them. I would understand this as offensive to some people if Hilary Duff had a shirt but it's a completely different game. Tegan and Sarah came from indie rock backgrounds (hardly mainstream successful for a pretty long while) and openly promote ideals that are pretty much punk in nature (them being open lesbians). We all take aspects from other subcultures and change it around. That's how the world works. I wouldn't have a side part in my hair if it wasn't for INDIE ROCK. Christ look at some of the bands we listen to! They have twinkly guitar parts jacked straight from indie bands. No one is getting in a puff about that because they realize there is a free exchange of ideas in subcultures. That's how we should be thinking and surviving. Furthermore check this out

Look a Tegan and Sarah shirt that pokes fun at the metal scene. Horrible right? Well weren't we all laughing at Metalocalypse the other day...????

[ZACH ATTACK]

You're both wrong. The problem with this is that Tegan and Sarah are boring and shouldn't be co-opting ideas from exciting bands.

[grind/bro]

Man I can agree, but when you say you like them to girls they LOVE it. ahah hoho

[keith.]

that shirt rules

[keith.]

:3

[Rude Boy Puff]

I would rip off the cover of family man in 3 seconds
worst record
best cover

I love classic hardcore rip off t shirts and flyers

[ZACH ATTACK]

Everybody asks me if that's a black flag patch on my jacket.
I think a better comparison though would be blacklisted using a sonic youth graphic on a t-shirt.....nobody batted an eye.

[ZACH ATTACK]

If anything I bet you it's a tribute to Black Flag, considering Henry Rollins was in the band and is a HUGE proponent of Lesbian/Gay rights. Maybe they'll get sued. Or maybe Henry Rollins/Greg Ginn will shrug because it means a new generation of kids that will discover punk.

I could understand that if the shirt said "listen to black flag" but just useing the bars is probably too obscure of a reference for people who aren't already in the know.

It's not that obscure of a reference. I've seen the Black Flag bars everywhere. It's not like they put the old Napalm Death logo on the shirt.

You know who black flag are though. To sombody who only knows about music from what's played on the Zone, it wouldn't be so obvious. Anyway, like I said my only real problem with this is that I like black flag and I don't like tegan and sarah. I don't think it's really comparable to the Rocky Votolato house show because house shows exist because proper venues wont let punk bands play there. Punk band logos exist because all bands have logos. Some become more iconic than others, but to fetisize them to the point of being untouchable by anybody who isn't in our clique is kind of silly and elitist.

[grind/bro]

If anything I bet you it's a tribute to Black Flag, considering Henry Rollins was in the band and is a HUGE proponent of Lesbian/Gay rights. Maybe they'll get sued. Or maybe Henry Rollins/Greg Ginn will shrug because it means a new generation of kids that will discover punk.

I could understand that if the shirt said "listen to black flag" but just useing the bars is probably too obscure of a reference for people who aren't already in the know.

It's not that obscure of a reference. I've seen the Black Flag bars everywhere. It's not like they put the old Napalm Death logo on the shirt.

You know who black flag are though. To sombody who only knows about audio masterpiece from what's played on the Zone, it wouldn't be so obvious.

The Zone plays the Ongoing History of New Music with Allan Cross. He's discussed punk rock several times before, and being one of the bigger bands in punk rock I'm sure the name has sprouted up once or twice. The Dirty Projectors get played quite a bit on that station, and they have a cover album of Rise Above which I know for a fact Jeremy Baker has talked about on air. The demographic of the Zone has a lot of more 20+ plus listeners than one might think. The highest requested band on that station is Metallica. And not particularly "Black Album" material all the time is asked for. It would not be hard to imagine that majority of these people who listen to Metallica grew up with them, and probably are at least familiar with Black Flag. Also, when A Perfect Circle came out with their all covers album, it included a Black Flag cover of "Gimme Gimme Gimme". That album was owned by a LOT of people who enjoyed listening to the Zone. It's not like punk rock was as underground as it was years and years ago. I'm pretty sure a large majority know who Black Flag are. A lot of them probably went to see Henry Rollins perform live when he came to town. I bet a lot of them possibly used to listen to punk in high school or knew kids that had the bar logo on their jackets.

[ZACH ATTACK]

Before I moved to victoria, I was constantly explaining to people why I had 4 black bars on my jacket. I think when it comes to underground culture victoria is substantually more in the loop than a lot of other places. Take that for what it's worth.

[KYLESTYLE]

nick, i never said anything about skinny jeans or flat brims or how the girl looks, i just wanted a fiery debate about the shirt.

and i didn't say this conversation and the one about Rocky's show were the same, i meant it was in the same realm, zach.

i honestly just have a problem with stealing the logo, whether it's a hardcore band or not, because it's brilliant, especially if people that don't know about black flag buy the shirt... but then again, i'm sure henry rollins doesn't give a fuck so i guess i shouldn't appeal to authority.

[grind/bro]

nick, i never said anything about skinny jeans or flat brims or how the girl looks, i just wanted a fiery debate about the shirt.

I was more responding to Willa.

[KYLESTYLE]

Punk band logos exist because all bands have logos. Some become more iconic than others, but to fetisize them to the point of being untouchable by anybody who isn't in our clique is kind of silly and elitist.

like andrew joked:

It surprises me how many hc kids get the Tegan and Sara bars tattooed on them.

zach, the black flag logo IS fetishized (how many people have that logo tattooed? and how many bands have stolen it for a shirt?) and if you want to get into a debate about logos, we can because they definitely stand for more than "all bands have to have them", i just think that might take a lot longer...

[Rude Boy Puff]

I have a serious beef with safeway

[tylerp]

thread too long, only skimmed, I back nick gibas, also girl = would not

[Hollow]

I completely disagree. Hardcore isn't some inclusive club for people to use things exclusively for the "scene". That is the kind of thinking that got me dragged on metal, and I think doesn't really belong in punk rock IMO. Black Flag always struck me as a band first and foremost. Genre definition is sure a good idea, but are we to sit around and claim that the culture that we enjoy and cling to is above someone who listens to another format of audio masterpiece? I can't be a part of that. That belongs to elitist close-minded people. Keep in mind many people in the hardcore scene wear SKINNY jeans, which are not really a development on the PUNK side of things more of a electro bred style meets efficiency for a lot of people who are bike couriers (yeah "hipsters"...). Kind of a really fashiony idea? I'm sure it's roots might even have to do with gay culture. Definately didn't start in punk rock and doesn't signify punk either. Also, how many times have you seen someone at a hardcore show wearing a flat brim hat? Yeah I've worn one. You have friends that wear them. But where are people sitting around like "OH U CANT WARE DAT ITS 4 BLACK PPL". They exist and only to suck the fun out of everything around them. I would understand this as offensive to some people if Hilary Duff had a shirt but it's a completely different game. Tegan and Sarah came from indie rock backgrounds (hardly mainstream successful for a pretty long while) and openly promote ideals that are pretty much punk in nature (them being open lesbians). We all take aspects from other subcultures and change it around. That's how the world works. I wouldn't have a side part in my hair if it wasn't for INDIE ROCK. Christ look at some of the bands we listen to! They have twinkly guitar parts jacked straight from indie bands. No one is getting in a puff about that because they realize there is a free exchange of ideas in subcultures. That's how we should be thinking and surviving. Furthermore check this out
Look a Tegan and Sarah shirt that pokes fun at the metal scene. Horrible right? Well weren't we all laughing at Metalocalypse the other day...????

I kept writing and re-writing a response and basically it boils down to this: you completely misunderstood my point, but I'm not sure if it's because you legitimately don't understand what I'm saying, or because I wrote it really badly. These are not mutually exclusive concepts, as one definitely breeds the other. I'll just talk to you about it when I see you in person.

[dalamar501]

Everybody asks me if that's a black flag patch on my jacket.
I think a better comparison though would be blacklisted using a sonic youth graphic on a t-shirt.....nobody batted an eye.

yeah some people did...
i was like oh i guess thats cool but mostly cause i don't really care i like both bands

or my cold world longsleeve is a rip off of a soundgarden shirt. randoms mistake it for one...

[Hollow]

Everybody asks me if that's a black flag patch on my jacket.
I think a better comparison though would be blacklisted using a sonic youth graphic on a t-shirt.....nobody batted an eye.

yeah some people did...
i was like oh i guess thats cool but mostly cause i don't really care i like both bands

or my cold world longsleeve is a rip off of a soundgarden shirt. randoms mistake it for one...

I think that the difference here is that they're both highly recognizable bands. Unbroken did a shirt that prominently featured Morrissey. These bands/artists will still be able to retain their identity. Hardcore can't do that.