DANGERS + Thank You + Thoughts on moms & suicide

[WatchItCrumble]

I never thought I'd make a an account, but here we go.....

The other side of me is a bit more defensive and pragmatic. One idea I return to is: no one killed themselves after the show, did they? Another thought I return to is: can anyone other than the suicide victim be blamed for the suicide? Surely there are situational influences in the shape of heartbreak, abuse, boredom, music, etc., but the decision for killing yourself (or, say, murdering people at your suburban Colorado high school) ultimately rests upon your own shoulders, and tracing the blame to a punk band or video game or violent movie seems a bit reductionist.

No, maybe no one killed themselves after the show. What's your point? What is important here is your terrible, ignorant logic. We can't "blame" people (society, punk bands, Marilyn Mason, etc) for other peoples' suicidal thoughts or tendencies. What we can do is realise that most often than none, suicide is due to depression. Depression is not a choice of being melodramatic, it is a disorder. A physical instability of chemicals and hormones in ones brain. Are we to start blaming kids with down syndrome for having down syndrome? Or people with pituitary dwarfism for being unable to regulate or produce growth hormones? To even suggest some blame should be made it inconceivable...

What about drug addicts and alcoholics that commit suicide while under the influence. This isn't a conscious choice they are making. It is a, sometimes, irreversible choice made due to a hereditary illness. Do we start blaming the alcoholic 18 year old who was born into a horrible family upbringing?

Our record was written with these people in mind: Richard Brautigan, Kurt Vonnegut, Sylvia Plath, Mitch Hedberg, Kurt Cobain, Yukio Mishima, Hemingway, uncles, aunts, friends, personal acquaintances, etc. All of whom either committed - or attempted to commit - suicide. It has been on my brain heavily over the past few years. I don't mean to pollute others with unnecessary doldrums, but, for me, the pen writes lyrics that the brain can't stop circulating.

In Vancouver you mentioned respect for people who took their own lives knowing that they no longer had reason to exist. Well, Kurt Vonnegut attempted suicide in 1984. Some of his best novels, short stories, essays, etc, have been written and published after 84'. Are these not iconic fiction pieces created after he attempted suicide? Obviously Vonnegut had a lot more existing left to do despite his own attempts to take his life. People who are severely depressed 'dissociate' which alters affect and consequently try to regulate emotions, sometimes resulting in taking their lives. This people aren't always in a conscious state of mind. Is that fair to them? For every person you think is a hero for taking their life, I would argue there are a hundred who went on to get treated and accomplish great things.

My problem is you make this issue to cut and dry based on your ill interpreted surroundings. There is so much more to suicide than someone just deciding, "Hey, I've graduated high school, had a kid, played in a band... What more could I do with myself now? Well, I guess I'll just kill myself." Again, suicide is most often, it not always, a decision made while not being totally conscious of what your doing: dissociation.

And for the record, I am not saying suicide should be illegal; if I ever get in a car accident and become a vegetable, I would hope my family would allow Jack Kevorkian to pull the plug on me... Although, I believe it's totally irresponsible, naive, and all tongue and cheek to say the things that were said.

[KYLESTYLE]

This western view that suicide is wrong, is just one way to look at it. Look into Bushido (the way of the samurai): "honour unto death" and seppuku. Only one example of a vast sea of different life and death outlooks. Unless we're living under Christian rule with black and white and one way to heaven...

Also, to say that Vonnegut's unsuccessful suicide attempt allowed him to create more profound works is illogical. He WAS unsuccessful, so to play with the past seems ignorant at best. That's like the argument against abortion: "if you knew your baby was to be handicapped and unable to hear, would you have an abortion to save it suffering? If you answer yes, you just killed Mozart." It doesn't matter; it happened or it didn't happen is all that matters and to toy with that does not make sense.

"They were born, then they lived, and then they died."

[WatchItCrumble]

Also, to say that Vonnegut's unsuccessful suicide attempt allowed him to create more profound works is illogical. He WAS unsuccessful, so to play with the past seems ignorant at best. That's like the argument against abortion: "if you knew your baby was to be handicapped and unable to hear, would you have an abortion to save it suffering? If you answer yes, you just killed Mozart." It doesn't matter; it happened or it didn't happen is all that matters and to toy with that does not make sense.

I don't know if this was in response to me, but if it is you totally misinterpreted my point. What I was saying it that even though he at one time in his life tried to commit suicide, he still had a lot more good books/essay/whatever in him... whether he had tried to take his life or not. I make this point because Al had said in vancouver, he respects those who commit suicide knowing that they have no more contributions to this world (or have done all that you need to do on this planet). What I was trying to say is that, this isn't true. In the case with Vonnegut, I'm not saying his suicide attempt effected his later works; independent of the suicide attempt, he had many more contributions to this world after 84'.

[Rude Boy Puff]

This honour in death seppuku shit is the reason why Japan has the world highest suicide rate. These people taking their lives everytime the economy tumbles or they make a mistake they arent just leaving their mistakes behind theyre leaving wives, husbands, children, brothers, sisters, family and friend. They are the ones left to pick up the pieces. The only thing that could possibly be considered good is the fact that those family members left behind have been raised that this is ok, but of course allows that process to repeat.

[WatchItCrumble]

most of me sees the things you listed (mental instability, depression, addiction) as some of the most beautiful/intriguing/important aspects of the human experience.

I would like to see you explain this one to the addicted, depressed, homeless people on the downtown eastside of Vancouver....

[Rude Boy Puff]

I suppose.

The other side of me is a bit more defensive and pragmatic. One idea I return to is: no one killed themselves after the show, did they? Another thought I return to is: can anyone other than the suicide victim be blamed for the suicide? Surely there are situational influences in the shape of heartbreak, abuse, boredom, music, etc., but the decision for killing yourself (or, say, murdering people at your suburban Colorado high school) ultimately rests upon your own shoulders, and tracing the blame to a punk band or video game or violent movie seems a bit reductionist.

I find this really insulting to my intelligence. No one is suggesting that your songs or speeches are gonna push some poor basturd over the edge. I realize that "give them the fucking gun" , "why didnt you kill yourself today" or "I have respect for those who have killed themselves because they have nothing left to contribute" as an intro to a song is somewhat benign in the grand sceme of things. I think its a cheap way to get a respone by using something powerful like suicide. I will equate it to watching hoods and being told "mosh you bitch f----t" Again something benign in the big picture but its become recognized by this community that the effect of homophobia have touched alot of us and its something I still see being fought tooth and nail. I am holding you to a higher standard because you hold yourselves at a higher standard of progression. Greg Bennick will always have me moshing harder than hoods ever could.

[LAxPB]

I always found the question 'Why didn't you kill yourself today?' to be rather inspiring.

[tylerp]

mental instability has resulted in some extremely creative ways of thinking and could be seen as an expansion of the human consciousness. depression as well, but depression can result in a pretty cold/detailed analysis of human existence from a sort of "outsider's" perspective. addiction is fueling our entire western culture, from the products we consume to the way we think about sex and relationships. I can't imagine a world without these three things.

and maybe I'm misunderstanding here, but is anyone arguing that suicide is always wrong? that's the kind of thought process that matches what makes us keep tortured old people with broken bodies and organs alive. why shouldn't anyone have the right to take their own life? maybe there are family members that feel the sting but everyone has to deal with death in some way. this kind of view towards life and death is part of why we're living in an overpopulated world, growing in a populist culture, expanding at an exponential rate, destroying the earth's resources, and living way longer than we need to.

and with the vonnegut example, what exactly is a contribution to the world? is playing in a punk band a contribution? is writing a bunch of popular books? raising a family? wearing a cape and killing rapists? as I get older and try to understand things, I'm coming to realize that anything creative I do is for me and not for the world as a contribution. sometimes I like sharing my written work to know that it's validated and accepted by my peers, but that's probably some extension of a need to be accepted in order to believe my own existence is worthwhile. or something. so sure, you're glad vonnegut didn't kill himself that time, but that was his judgment call to make and nobody else's.

[carlsincharge]

The other side of me is a bit more defensive and pragmatic. One idea I return to is: no one killed themselves after the show, did they? Another thought I return to is: can anyone other than the suicide victim be blamed for the suicide? Surely there are situational influences in the shape of heartbreak, abuse, boredom, music, etc., but the decision for killing yourself (or, say, murdering people at your suburban Colorado high school) ultimately rests upon your own shoulders, and tracing the blame to a punk band or video game or violent movie seems a bit reductionist.

It should be noted that depression, the leading cause of suicide, is an affliction that distorts one's perception of reality. Perhaps it is ultimately the suicidal's decision to take their own life, but most likely their brain is not functioning correctly. Depression is a clinical disease that can be treated pharmacologically or through therapy, and while the decision to take one's own life is an indivisual decision, the depression that may have caused someone to have suicidal thoughts was not a disease they decided to have. It is an illness that was unfairly forced on them, whether it be due to genetics or environment. Just as it is unfair that some are dealt with a life of depression, it is equally unfair that people are telling you that it is ok to end your life, instead of reaching out and telling you that you don't have to feel depressed and offering solutions rather than a way out. Who knows what the Elliott Smith's, Curt Cobain's, Van Gogh's, Ian Curtis', and countless other of tortured geniuses might have gone on to do if they were still alive today? Or who knows what the countless of young people who ended their live's could have accomplished if they were treated rather than dismissed as sad, helpless people; or if someone told them it was alright to kill themselves if they believed it was the right thing to do. It's like cutting a flower at the bud before it blossoms, the potential for true beauty and greatness is never realized due to a narrow sighted, rash judgement (sorry for the extreme cheeze in that sentence).

[KRS-ONE]

I HAVE NO COMMENT AT THIS TIME.

[ZACH ATTACK]

When I was 17 my friend Aaron committed suicide because he was schizophrenic, depressed, confused and felt like his life was out of his control so he did the one thing he knew how to do to gain back control over his own life. I'm sad that he died but happy that if even if only for a split second he felt in control again. I'm not into wondering about what he would have done with his life had he not killed himself. That point is really moot. He could have discovered a cure for cancer, or he could have gone on a rampage and killed every body, but he's dead so there's no point in speculating, just like there's no point in speculating about what he and I would be doing right now. It's all hypothetical scenarios with no real world application. Bottom line is that the treatment he was getting wasn't working and he felt like this the was the only solution. I don't know what it's like to feel that way, but I would assume it's pretty horrible, the same I way I don't know what it feels like to be so sick that one would request euthanasia but that seems pretty shitty too. I guess my views on suicide are that some people get sick and die in their sleep, some people get sick and ask somebody else to kill them, and some people get sick and kill themselves. No matter we hat it sucks for everybody left behind, the only difference is the way that we view physical and emotional pain. I'd also be willing to bet that it sucks a lot more for the person committing the actual act. I don't mean this as an endorsement of suicide, but I'm not really willing to condemn it either. I mean, obviousness if if somebody told told me they were considering it I'd do anything I could to stop them, but at the end of the end of the day I really think it's a choice left up to the individual.

[Hollow]

At work, and don't have time to read this right now, but will mos def jump into this convo when I'm off.

WatchItCrumble, who are you?

[age of quarrel]

Wasn't at the victoria show but I was at the vancouver show. I don't know if what was said at both shows was the same, but in vancouver the explanation for stay at home mom was a bit of a broad generalization but I think they point there and having spent a couple year of my life living and working in the most affluent part of greater vancouver and dealing with plastic surgery trophy moms on a daily basis I can relate to what all said.
dangers, please come back to canada more often.
"if you have never considered suicide there is something seriously wrong with you"

[Al Brown]

Some quick ideas:

It should be noted that depression, the leading cause of suicide, is an affliction that distorts one's perception of reality. Perhaps it is ultimately the suicidal's decision to take their own life, but most likely their brain is not functioning correctly.

What is the definition of "correctly"? Because a brain comes to a conclusion that Western society is uncomfortable with does not mean that it is "incorrect." It may be chemically/genetically influenced, but I think we're all on shaky ground if we start throwing judgmental terminology around. Using the word "rational" also bothers me, for the record. I don't believe that your decision to wake up and continue your life today is any "better" than the suicide's choice to end his. They are just different choices. Perhaps you value life/living differently than I.

Just as it is unfair that some are dealt with a life of depression, it is equally unfair that people are telling you that it is ok to end your life, instead of reaching out and telling you that you don't have to feel depressed and offering solutions rather than a way out.

I disagree. It is a very subjective and judgmental stance to say that living is better than being dead. For some people, this is not true. I think it is selfish to attempt to persuade a person in any direction. Rather, I feel both choices - to live or to take one's own life - must be seen as personal decisions. Whatever speech I may have made was not an attempt at persuasion in any direction, but more a celebration of the fact that we should each attempt to be in better control of our lives.

Who knows what the Elliott Smith's, Curt Cobain's, Van Gogh's, Ian Curtis', and countless other of tortured geniuses might have gone on to do if they were still alive today?

To me, this is not the point. Also, this seems a bit selfish. As in, "That person should have stayed alive because they could have brought more joy to my/this world!" I call bullshit. Some people don't enjoy living. And some people don't want to "get better." I think it's deplorable to leave behind children to be raised without parental supervision, but I can't see fault in the logic to end one's life even if they have "more to offer." This goes along with the Vonnegut discussion. These are personal choices. One can argue that it is ALWAYS possible to do more in life, to contribute and do good. I am merely stating that 1) finding a way to be useful is the only way to justify each day of life and 2) if a person decides he/she doesn't want to or can no longer be useful (as he/she defines it) any more, suicide is a respectable option.

Mostly, Tyler said the things I want to say more eloquently than I was able to. I feel like there is a fundamental discord on this issue, and I feel like that's okay! Some people value life and living over death. All I know is my own situation, my own head, my own fucked ideas. I can see good reason to reach out to people that are suffering from depression (though I fundamentally disagree that "medication" is ever a good thing). However, we all die. I am tired of living in a society that attempts to preserve life at all costs. It's boring. And it's really the least "rational" approach to take. Death is not bad. It is unavoidable. Shakespeare, Jesus, Vonnegut, Darby Crash...we all die, regardless of our influence over human thought. The Earth really won't have cared in the end. So, the only idea I'm really espousing is to be more sure of yourself. To answer daily why you chose life over death. If there comes a time when you can't figure out why to live, create a reason. And, if this is impossible, I can't fault you for opting out.

I'm done now.
al

[Mikey]

Speaking from only a high school grad level of education, with an anxiety disorder and occasional bouts of depression. Lemme jump into this thang.

What is the definition of "correctly"? Because a brain comes to a conclusion that Western society is uncomfortable with does not mean that it is "incorrect."

First, what did you mean by this? Because I would certainly say that the brain of someone with clinical depression does not function properly. It's not a "western" way of thinking. It's the fact that (sometimes) I will get no joy out of something my brain is saying "that's good! it makes you happy!" but instead of wanting to embrace it my warped instinct says "push that away".

And to stay with the general topic: Suicide being wrong? I dunno, let me be clear in that I would do anything to stop someone I knew/encountered from committing suicide as I do believe it's a flaw in the mind to want to end life. The human instinct is to survive (which is debatable).

As far as the famous creatives types committing suicide, I personally wouldn't say it is an issue of "i wish i had gotten more from them" so much as, it's about the betterment of themselves, not about what we see in them. Which creates the arguement "well maybe they thought they had become the best they could be" like is a theory with Kurt Cobain, and to me that is sad. Nobody will ever be the best, and the continued struggle to create and expand our minds is reason enough to keep living.

This is all jumbled in my head, I tried to make it as clear as I could but sometimes I don't express myself very well on the first try. So lastly, suicide sucks and makes nothing better. Easier? Perhaps for that brief/fleeting moment. But not better.

[WatchItCrumble]

I disagree. It is a very subjective and judgmental stance to say that living is better than being dead. For some people, this is not true. I think it is selfish to attempt to persuade a person in any direction. Rather, I feel both choices - to live or to take one's own life - must be seen as personal decisions. Whatever speech I may have made was not an attempt at persuasion in any direction, but more a celebration of the fact that we should each attempt to be in better control of our lives.

I feel that is it quite the opposite.... To reach out to someone and help them through a hard times and to be there for someone you care about when that person may not be thinking rationally (due to uncontrolled chemical instability of depression and/or addiction), I think is a selfless act. To not be there to for someone is selfish. This isn't about the person being alive for my sake, it's about the person being alive for their sake. I can't stress it enough, that depression and suicide are mental disorders. You break your leg, you go to the hospital. Yet when you have psychological issues it becomes okay to for us to sweep it under the rug and just stand by and watch as someone may do something so severe as to take their life while under the influence of their illness?

Here is an analogy. Someone comes out of the bar drunk. They think at the time it is a good idea to drive home instead of paying 12.50 for the taxi ride home. If we saw the guy (or the guys saw himself) in that state, we would know that this guy is playing a game of russian roulette trying to make it home safely. You tell him, "Hey man, I don't think you should drive home", he would promptly reply with a nice "FUCK YOU!". Although, the next morning when he sobered up, he might thank you for saving his life..... Maybe not that accurate, but I'm tired and I tried my best to come up with something relevant.

[WatchItCrumble]

First, what did you mean by this? Because I would certainly say that the brain of someone with clinical depression does not function properly. It's not a "western" way of thinking. It's the fact that (sometimes) I will get no joy out of something my brain is saying "that's good! it makes you happy!" but instead of wanting to embrace it my warped instinct says "push that away".

And to stay with the general topic: Suicide being wrong? I dunno, let me be clear in that I would do anything to stop someone I knew/encountered from committing suicide as I do believe it's a flaw in the mind to want to end life. The human instinct is to survive (which is debatable).

As far as the famous creatives types committing suicide, I personally wouldn't say it is an issue of "i wish i had gotten more from them" so much as, it's about the betterment of themselves, not about what we see in them. Which creates the arguement "well maybe they thought they had become the best they could be" like is a theory with Kurt Cobain, and to me that is sad. Nobody will ever be the best, and the continued struggle to create and expand our minds is reason enough to keep living.

This is all jumbled in my head, I tried to make it as clear as I could but sometimes I don't express myself very well on the first try. So lastly, suicide sucks and makes nothing better. Easier? Perhaps for that brief/fleeting moment. But not better.

Couldn't have said it better myself.

What is the definition of "correctly"? Because a brain comes to a conclusion that Western society is uncomfortable with does not mean that it is "incorrect."

It isn't "The Man" that is telling us it's "incorrect", it's just human biology.

What really bothers me the most, and down right scares me is that you are a high school "therapist" and have these views and beliefs. You are in no way shape or form in any state to be held in the position of "therapist" in a school, where kids are at times the most mentally unstable. If you preach this stuff to the kids that come to you for help and for a crutch to lean on, they are in a lot of danger... I should hope you are not board certified to practice or licensed as a professional. I'm not trying to sound threatening... but seriously? Your a therapist for kids...

[Andrew]

Well said Mikey.

[carlsincharge]

Some quick ideas:

It should be noted that depression, the leading cause of suicide, is an affliction that distorts one's perception of reality. Perhaps it is ultimately the suicidal's decision to take their own life, but most likely their brain is not functioning correctly.

What is the definition of "correctly"? Because a brain comes to a conclusion that Western society is uncomfortable with does not mean that it is "incorrect." It may be chemically/genetically influenced, but I think we're all on shaky ground if we start throwing judgmental terminology around. Using the word "rational" also bothers me, for the record. I don't believe that your decision to wake up and continue your life today is any "better" than the suicide's choice to end his. They are just different choices. Perhaps you value life/living differently than I.

By correctly I meant that there is a measurable chemcial balance that is present in someone who does not suffer from depression. Western societal perceptions aside, it is human instinct to want to survive and thrive, and when someone suffers a mental affliction, such as depression and addiction, that instinct can be compromised.

Mostly, Tyler said the things I want to say more eloquently than I was able to. I feel like there is a fundamental discord on this issue, and I feel like that's okay! Some people value life and living over death. All I know is my own situation, my own head, my own fucked ideas. I can see good reason to reach out to people that are suffering from depression (though I fundamentally disagree that "medication" is ever a good thing). However, we all die. I am tired of living in a society that attempts to preserve life at all costs. It's boring. And it's really the least "rational" approach to take. Death is not bad. It is unavoidable. Shakespeare, Jesus, Vonnegut, Darby Crash...we all die, regardless of our influence over human thought. The Earth really won't have cared in the end. So, the only idea I'm really espousing is to be more sure of yourself. To answer daily why you chose life over death. If there comes a time when you can't figure out why to live, create a reason. And, if this is impossible, I can't fault you for opting out.

I'm done now.
al

I agree with yours and Tyler's point on society's obsession with preserving life, whether it when someone is suffering from an incurable case of a painful bone cancer, or having the elderly attached to life support during the final days of their lives when death is imanent in the near future. However, I think that these are completely different issues than the issue that I was discussing, which is relatively young people deciding to take their own lives due to mental disorders. Of course their are instances where no amount of treatment will prevent themselves from trying to kill themselves, but i fundamentally disagree with the notion of saying that it is ok for someone to takre their own life if they feel they have outgrown their usefulness on the earth, as their perception of self worth may be completely altered. I agree death is not bad, it's a part of life, but some people are unfairly not given the ability to live life to their full potential (whether it be in terms of happiness or usefullness) due to depression or other mental illnesses. It's easy to look at it through the mindset of "the earth really won;t have cared in the end", but anything can be looked at through lense. Why should we care about depression, why should we care about racism, why should we care about homophobia, in the grand scheme of things everyone dies and then it's over and done with. We need to care because people are suffering unwillingly, whether it be at the hands of someone else or at the hands of their own afflictions. I suppose we will have to agree to disagree.

[carlsincharge]

As far as the famous creatives types committing suicide, I personally wouldn't say it is an issue of "i wish i had gotten more from them" so much as, it's about the betterment of themselves, not about what we see in them. Which creates the arguement "well maybe they thought they had become the best they could be" like is a theory with Kurt Cobain, and to me that is sad. Nobody will ever be the best, and the continued struggle to create and expand our minds is reason enough to keep living.

This was the point i was trying to make. well said