New Hatebreed

[Hollow]

Why is it always cool for pseudo intellectual nerds to ignorantly insult everyone to their hearts content, but then when the favor is ignorantly returned it's then time to stop the presses.
Nerd are whats wrong with hardcore
Dropping the F bomb does not make you a homophobe, it means you used a term of degradation

I happen to agree with you on this one. Homophobia is completely different from dropping the F bomb. That's just plain ignorant. Homophobia is something else entirely. Neither is kosher in my book.

[ZACH ATTACK]

I happen to agree with you on this one. Homophobia is completely different from dropping the F bomb. That's just plain ignorant. Homophobia is something else entirely. Neither is kosher in my book.

This statement is completly opposite to a lot of other things you've said to me. Just the other day you were talking about all the social impilications of dropping the F bomb and how they directly relate to homophobia. In the same way calling people Jews purely as an expression of discontent doesn't make it any less anti-semitic, calling people f--- for the same reason doesn't make it any less homophobic.

Dropping the F bomb does not make you a homophobe, it means you used a term of degradation

If you accept the that F bomb is a term a degradadation, than it's pretty much impossible to argue that using it doesn't make one a homophobe. It's a sexually based insult with the express purpose to equate homosexuality with being less than heterosexuality, ergo using it makes one a homophobe and it has no place in punk rock. Whether you like or not such terms exist within a socio-historical context that exists with or without your consent and no amount of railing against intelectualism will change that. Baisically, people who aren't homophobes don't call people "gay" as an insult. It's like dropping an N bomb and then claiming that you're not a racist, you just wanted to offend who ever you were using it towards. In both cases it's complete bullshit.
And for the record, I''m not some student in their first semester of gender studies or whatever. I'm about as working class as it gets.

[Hollow]

I happen to agree with you on this one. Homophobia is completely different from dropping the F bomb. That's just plain ignorant. Homophobia is something else entirely. Neither is kosher in my book.

This statement is completly opposite to a lot of other things you've said to me. Just the other day you were talking about all the social impilications of dropping the F bomb and how they directly relate to homophobia. In the same way calling people Jews purely as an expression of discontent doesn't make it any less anti-semitic, calling people f--- for the same reason doesn't make it any less homophobic.

...good call. Sorry, not sure where my mind went there.

[Rude Boy Puff]

I happen to agree with you on this one. Homophobia is completely different from dropping the F bomb. That's just plain ignorant. Homophobia is something else entirely. Neither is kosher in my book.

This statement is completly opposite to a lot of other things you've said to me. Just the other day you were talking about all the social impilications of dropping the F bomb and how they directly relate to homophobia. In the same way calling people Jews purely as an expression of discontent doesn't make it any less anti-semitic, calling people f--- for the same reason doesn't make it any less homophobic.

Dropping the F bomb does not make you a homophobe, it means you used a term of degradation

If you accept the that F bomb is a term a degradadation, than it's pretty much impossible to argue that using it doesn't make one a homophobe. It's a sexually based insult with the express purpose to equate homosexuality with being less than heterosexuality, ergo using it makes one a homophobe and it has no place in punk rock. Whether you like or not such terms exist within a socio-historical context that exists with or without your consent and no amount of railing against intelectualism will change that. Baisically, people who aren't homophobes don't call people "gay" as an insult. It's like dropping an N bomb and then claiming that you're not a racist, you just wanted to offend who ever you were using it towards. In both cases it's complete bullshit.
And for the record, I''m not some student in their first semester of gender studies or whatever. I'm about as working class as it gets.

Im not defending its use in any way, shape or form. Im not the kind of person who goes out of his way to not be P.C. I just fail to see the point in giving such a word that kind of power. Sometimes all sorts of disrespectful slurs come out of my mouth and very few of the people Im close with take offense regardless of sex, race, religion, or sexual orientation. Doesn't make it right and doesn't mean I dont make an effort to check my tongue. It is just my experience.

[ZACH ATTACK]

This is going to be the last things I say on the subject because you seem like a nice enough guy and I don't want to be constantly butting heads with you, but unfortunately we don't get to decide what and how much words mean. What you say in private with your friends and loved ones is between you and them and if they're not offended that's great. But that doesn't change that certain terms are designed specifically to degrade certain identifiable groups. I don't think it's a matter of being PC as much as it is a matter of not slurring groups of people for no reason other than to be rude. Maybe I'm anomaly, but I've never thought about dropping an F bomb on somebody and then deciding to check my mouth because the thought to do so hasn't crossed my mind in about 15 years since I figured out that slurring identifiable groups is a disrespectful and petty thing to do. If you want to insult people, insult then based on their own merits.

[grind/bro]

we don't get to decide what and how much words mean.

But don't we? There have been tons of words that have rapidly changed their definition as language evolves. Not coming to bat for use of ngr/fgt, but saying that we have no control over words means that we are subjugated by language.

[Hollow]

we don't get to decide what and how much words mean.

But don't we? There have been tons of words that have rapidly changed their definition as language evolves. Not coming to bat for use of ngr/fgt, but saying that we have no control over words means that we are subjugated by language.

This is sort of the heart of the argument, I suppose. I think a better way of getting to what Zach was saying is to say that we have no control over definable words that apply to communities other than our own. For instance, the usage of the n-bomb by white people is racist, but when used by the black community can be a term of endearment, a place marker, or simply a descriptor. That's the word as defined by the black community, and we as white people (and I use the cultural "we", fully cognizant of the non-whites who may or may not be lurking this board) do not have the right to define it otherwise. Similarly, fgt is homophobic coming from a straight person, acceptable coming from a gay person. The word is defined by the community it describes.


Zach can and will pipe in if I've fucked that all up.

[Rude Boy Puff]

This is going to be the last things I say on the subject because you seem like a nice enough guy and I don't want to be constantly butting heads with you, but unfortunately we don't get to decide what and how much words mean. What you say in private with your friends and loved ones is between you and them and if they're not offended that's great. But that doesn't change that certain terms are designed specifically to degrade certain identifiable groups. I don't think it's a matter of being PC as much as it is a matter of not slurring groups of people for no reason other than to be rude. Maybe I'm anomaly, but I've never thought about dropping an F bomb on somebody and then deciding to check my mouth because the thought to do so hasn't crossed my mind in about 15 years since I figured out that slurring identifiable groups is a disrespectful and petty thing to do. If you want to insult people, insult then based on their own merits.

I need to learn to be a more evolved man and 2 bands that had an arguement 10 years ago said some thing they are both more than likely sorry for. Everything youre saying is right like I said Im not defending the use of the word. My whole point was that its preposterous to write off hatebreed as homophobic thugs based on that article.

There is no butting heads this is progress

[Hollow]

This is going to be the last things I say on the subject because you seem like a nice enough guy and I don't want to be constantly butting heads with you, but unfortunately we don't get to decide what and how much words mean. What you say in private with your friends and loved ones is between you and them and if they're not offended that's great. But that doesn't change that certain terms are designed specifically to degrade certain identifiable groups. I don't think it's a matter of being PC as much as it is a matter of not slurring groups of people for no reason other than to be rude. Maybe I'm anomaly, but I've never thought about dropping an F bomb on somebody and then deciding to check my mouth because the thought to do so hasn't crossed my mind in about 15 years since I figured out that slurring identifiable groups is a disrespectful and petty thing to do. If you want to insult people, insult then based on their own merits.

I need to learn to be a more evolved man and 2 bands that had an arguement 10 years ago said some thing they are both more than likely sorry for. Everything youre saying is right like I said Im not defending the use of the word. My whole point was that its preposterous to write off hatebreed as homophobic thugs based on that article.

There is no butting heads this is progress

And this is why I love you Pat. When are you free to hang out, anyway?

[ZACH ATTACK]

we don't get to decide what and how much words mean.

But don't we? There have been tons of words that have rapidly changed their definition as language evolves. Not coming to bat for use of ngr/fgt, but saying that we have no control over words means that we are subjugated by language.

This is sort of the heart of the argument, I suppose. I think a better way of getting to what Zach was saying is to say that we have no control over definable words that apply to communities other than our own. For instance, the usage of the n-bomb by white people is racist, but when used by the black community can be a term of endearment, a place marker, or simply a descriptor. That's the word as defined by the black community, and we as white people (and I use the cultural "we", fully cognizant of the non-whites who may or may not be lurking this board) do not have the right to define it otherwise. Similarly, fgt is homophobic coming from a straight person, acceptable coming from a gay person. The word is defined by the community it describes.


Zach can and will pipe in if I've fucked that all up.

This is kind of what I was getting at in that such terms exist within a socio-historical-political conext. I'd still probably argue that we're slaves to language, but that's probably a more complicated conversation.

[dalamar501]

i like language.

maybe that's why i was a linguistic major. we do have control over words and their meanings but it is more of a gradual change over time.

look at some words like "soon" in middle English that meant IMMEDIATELY as in right away. Now it is used kind of casually to say some point in the future something will happen.

There are a bunch of other words as well that of course have had much more drastic changes.


But i guess it does come down to a more Sociological problem with the words. as in what group use it. AND depending on which groups do will be what makes that word change over time. And then it becomes of a question of WHEN has that word changed its meaning / become suitable to be open to all without offending. Long process that we will not see in our life time so whatever.


EDIT:

some more fun words that have changed. here are old meanings

awful = deserving of awe
girl - young person of either gender
nice - foolish/stupid

Oh Etymology how fun.

[ebony]

December 2nd at Commodore

[Jordan f.]

this is a hatebreed thread. Less intelligence, more mosh!

haha but honestly, I haven't heard this album... maybe one day